ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: past perfect

New2grammar — Sun, 18 May 2008 06:14:09 GMT

I see. Thanks Huevos!!!

Re: past perfect

Huevos — Sun, 18 May 2008 00:04:49 GMT

New2grammar
I was told that present perfect tense should not go with a point in the past.

That's correct but it can be used with any current temporal marker, i.e. this morning , today, this afternoon, this evening, this week, this month, this year, etc.

From "A Grammar of the English Language", Volume I, 65B: A minute before 12 o'clock in the morning we may say 'I have bought a new hat this morning'. A minute later this morning is gone forever and this afternoon is ushered in. After the bell taps twelve we must say 'I bought a new hat this morning'. Thus the present perfect distinguishes sharply between the past and the present. It can never be used for something in the past.

I hope that helps clarify.

Re: past perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 17 May 2008 23:20:29 GMT

I was told that present perfect tense should not go with a point in the past.

For example, I've finished my homework in the morning. (wrong)

Say either,

I've finished my homework

I finished my howework in the morning.

Since can be used with the present perfect to indicate a range

I've been watching TV since this morning.

I've been here since 7 a.m.

Re: past perfect

Huevos — Sat, 17 May 2008 22:49:44 GMT

New2grammar
That's not what I was taught.

What were you taught?

By the way it was ok for Shakespeare: Hadst thou done so, the kings that have revolted, and the soldier that has this morning left thee, would have still followed thy heels.

Re: past perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 17 May 2008 22:32:09 GMT

Oh no! That's not what I was taught. I hope CJ or someone could come in and explain why this is acceptable. Maybe it's an exception.

Re: past perfect

Huevos — Sat, 17 May 2008 22:15:52 GMT

New2grammar
Are the first sentences what you said grammatically preferable?

Yes, but Americans have become so lazy with perfects that these days it is quite acceptable for them not to use the perfect here at all.

New2grammar
However, the third first sentence is ,as far as I know, grammatically incorrect.

"Has [something] this morning" (present perfect) is fine grammatically. The state caused by the event prevails to the present, i.e. "This morning Bob has eaten a full English breakfast so it's unlikely he's going to want to take lunch early".

Re: past perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 17 May 2008 21:56:06 GMT

English is pretty relaxed when it comes to past events and we often use the past indefinite where the past imperfect, past perfect, or present perfect might be grammatically preferable, but, because we are all used to hearing it we don't find it confusing

Are the first sentences what you said grammatically preferable?

If so, I think I understand what you mean now. However, the third first sentence is ,as far as I know, grammatically incorrect.

Re: past perfect

Huevos — Sat, 17 May 2008 21:42:00 GMT

New2grammar
Huevos, could you give a couple of examples to support your statement.

Bob went home because his wife had fallen over in the shower and broken her leg.

Bob went home because his wife fell over in the shower and broke her leg.

Bob used to play a lot of tennis when he was younger.

Bob played a lot of tennis when he was younger.

Bob has been to the Post Office this morning.

Bob went to the Post Office this morning.

Re: past perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 17 May 2008 21:21:36 GMT

Huevos, could you give a couple of examples to support your statement.
They'll help me understand better. Thanks in advance!

Re: past perfect

Huevos — Sat, 17 May 2008 21:15:20 GMT

New2grammar
Won't that be confusing to the reader since you use past tense to describe both events

If everyone was really careful to always use the grammatically correct tense then using the "wrong" one might be pretty confusing, but that's not the case. English is pretty relaxed when it comes to past events and we often use the past indefinite where the past imperfect, past perfect, or present perfect might be grammatically preferable, but, because we are all used to hearing it we don't find it confusing.

Re: past perfect

Clive — Sat, 17 May 2008 17:24:52 GMT

Hi,

Won't that be confusing to the reader since you use past tense to describe both events; in the past's past and in the past. Reader won't know
whether you're still describing events that happened at the store or you've returned to the original time point (before the time shift occurred).

I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples. I ran into Amy (When did he meet Amy, after he went to the shop or during?)

Typically, you'd avoid any confusion by how you word the sentence.

eg I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples, and I ran into Amy there. She smiled at me. While I was fishing, I caught 3 big ones.

If your answer is 'during', how do you 'undo' the time shift? I don't want to be stuck there forever. What's the code for the time machine to get me out?

As above, for example.

Often, just the meaning is enough. eg I met Tom yesterday. He had just bought his first car. He paid $20,000 for it. He let me drive it.

Best wishes, Clive

Thanks in ADVANCE. I can't thank you after this because I'm a man of my word

Best wishes, Clive

Re: past perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 17 May 2008 16:52:05 GMT

Sorry, I promise this is my last post.
Won't that be confusing to the reader since you use past tense to describe both events; in the past's past and in the past. Reader won't know
whether you're still describing events that happened at the store or you've returned to the original time point (before the time shift occurred).

I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples. I ran into Amy (When did he meet Amy, after he went to the shop or during?)

If your answer is 'during', how do you 'undo' the time shift? I don't want to be stuck there forever. What's the code for the time machine to get me out?

Thanks in ADVANCE. I can't thank you after this because I'm a man of my word

Re: past perfect

Clive — Sat, 17 May 2008 16:35:47 GMT

Hi,

No, I wouldn't do that. You have already performed the shift.

Clive

Re: past perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 17 May 2008 15:36:20 GMT

Clive, please allow me to interrupt for a second.

Let's examine the momentary shift in time using past perfect. If I would like to add another point that happened while I was at the store, do I need to use past perfect again?

"I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples. Oh...I almost forgot, I [had run/ran] into Tom while I was in the shop, he was blah blah blah.

Re: past perfect

Clive — Sat, 17 May 2008 15:23:55 GMT

Hi,

I wonder how past perfect is used in longer narratives. Let me pull a case in point:

"I went fishing this morning. Before I went fishing, I had gone to a shop..." And now, shall I use the past simple or the past perfect when continuing with ... "I bought / had bought a few apples there."

The word 'before' makes the sequence of events very clear without the past perfect, so it would be common to say it this way. (I've also made a few other chnages to make the narrative flow more smoothly.)

"I went fishing this morning. Before that, I went to a shop where I bought a few apples."

Without 'before', the past perfect serves to make the sequence clear, eg

"I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples (so I didn't get hungry while I was fishing)."

As shown in the above example, the past perfect also shifts the reader's attention temporarily in time, and then allows the attention to shift back to the main time featured in the narrative. Compare

"I went fishing this morning. Before that, I went to a shop where I bought a few apples. While I was in the shop, I saw my friend Tom. He was buying some paint. He told me that . . . ". Here, the reader's attention is shifted back in time from "the fishing time" to "the store time", and allowed to stay there.

Best wishes, Clive