ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: brim vs rim

Clive — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:21:00 GMT

Hi guys,

With regard to most of the things listed in the last post, I think I'd most often speak of 'the edge' or 'the top'. I don't think I often use the words 'rim' or 'brim'.

eg If you are going to take it downstairs, don't fill that glass to the top.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: brim vs rim

New2grammar — Tue, 20 May 2008 14:13:39 GMT

a "brim" isn't really an actual part of the cup - it's just that point at which the cup is full.

The above and the fly example clear up a lot of confusion. Thanks, Delmobile. So even an egg or a coconut shell can have a rim when they are cracked in half, am I right? Everything that can hold liquid have a rim, even tyres and drawers, right?

Re: brim vs rim

Delmobile — Tue, 20 May 2008 13:59:40 GMT

Okay, let me take another stab at it. I think we've gotten silly - I blame myself for injecting that coffee commercial - and are making it harder than it needs to be.

A "brim" is the uppermost edge of any container that can be filled. Avangi seems to think the container needs to be round, but I disagree. "Fill to the brim" isn't an idiomatic expression, although it can be used figuratively (he was brimful of merriment). "Fill to the brim" keeps coming up in this discussion, because it's about the only way we use this word (except for hats!)

When we're not speaking figuratively of brims, we're filling a cup, or something similar to a cup, with liquid. When something is "brimful" it has been filled to the point where liquid is actually slopping over the edge, or creating the surface tension "bulge" that Avangi mentioned just before it slops over. Unless the container has fairly vertical sides, it can't be filled in that way. So, platters and trays don't have brims.

However---unless we're discussing hats!---a "brim" isn't really an actual part of the cup - it's just that point at which the cup is full. You wouldn't say "a fly is perched on the brim of my glass, which is brimful of milk" even though the fly and the milk were at the same spot. You'd say the fly was on the "edge" or "rim" of the glass.

I love these soupbowls with the wide blue rim. I would love them more if they were filled to the brim with your delicious cucumber soup.

Re: brim vs rim

New2grammar — Tue, 20 May 2008 10:08:29 GMT

Thank you, Avangi, Delmobile and CJ.

I'm sorry but I still don't understand the differences.Are they geometrically different?
If they are, it'll be easy for me to grab if you could describe the differences. For the moment, we can ignore the idiomatic expression "fill to the brim"
and focus on the geometric differences. it will help if you could attach a drawing/sketch or two in the process.
Delmobile may have described it but I'm afraid it's still unclear to me.

Perhaps, I should have asked this in my first post but I never thought it was going to be this confusing.

Thanks in advance!

CJ, I wonder what the word is. Does it come with E? Can I buy a 'A'?

Re: brim vs rim

CalifJim — Tue, 20 May 2008 01:24:02 GMT

positive m*n*sc*s

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Such dirty talk.

Re: brim vs rim

Delmobile — Tue, 20 May 2008 01:14:14 GMT

Um...I meant my "yes" in reply to Avangi, just in the sense of agreeing with the confusion surrounding the two terms. I hadn't seen New2's specific brim-related question then.

Positive meniscus??? Good Lord, I thought I was muddying the waters by bringing in the idea of a geometric concept.

Re: brim vs rim

Avangi — Tue, 20 May 2008 00:26:43 GMT

New2grammar
Can I say "the brim of the plate" since they are mostly round? Could you also mark those examples of mine that have brims?

With salutations to Del, I would have said "no." I meant brims are possessed by all the round items on your list as it stands. That excludes only "lunch box" and "baking pan" in my experience, although I now recall that we had a few round baking pans for making round cakes, and cupcake tins for baking nine or a dozen cupcakes together, each cup of which could be said to have a brim.

All the items on your list are containers of sorts, so anything on your list which you conceive of as being round IMHO would have a brim. I didn't mean to imply that anything which is round has a brim. (Certainly not "round like a ball," which is spherical.") The plate is a slippery slope. Some plates are "dished" more than others, in the engineering sense. All have rims and may be "filled to the brim," but I'd say most do not have brims. All of the containers on your list have side walls approaching the vertical. I'd say a Frisbie has a brim, but that's argumentative. (Does it only have a brim when you hold it upside down?)

I seem to remember that the origin of "fill to the brim" had something to do with a positive meniscus, but I can't seem to find it. (The surface tension between liquids and the walls of containers causes some to slope upward and some downward at the point of contact, so some liquids (like mercury) can fill a container to above the rim.)

- A.

Re: brim vs rim

CalifJim — Mon, 19 May 2008 20:27:22 GMT

Idiom: to fill to the brim. Also brimming full (nearly overflowing).

hat brim

Everything else: rim.

Re: brim vs rim

Delmobile — Mon, 19 May 2008 19:44:34 GMT

Webster's has two definitions for "brim" - the upper or outer margin, and the projecting rim of a hat. The first meaning, as Avangi has said, is mostly used when we talk about filling something. It's almost a geometric concept, if you will, rather than a real thing. It's even used in metaphor: you can fill somebody's heart to the brim with gratitude, or their brains to the brim with information.

So, in this first Websterian sense, all the words in the above list have a brim, since they can all contain.

I hate it when bartenders fill martini glasses to the brim. When I try to lift it to my mouth, it always spills, no matter how careful I am.

Johnny's mother filled his lunchbox to the brim every day with good, healthful food, which he promptly traded to his classmates for candy and chips.

You should never fill a baking pan to the brim with batter, since the batter will expand during baking. Only fill them halfway.

I love going caroling. It always fills me to the brim with the "Christmas spirit."

In our next discussion, we will take on rimless, or coupe-style, soup bowls :)

Re: brim vs rim

New2grammar — Mon, 19 May 2008 18:07:36 GMT

1. cup

2. mug

3. lunch box

4. glass

5. pot

6. baking pan

7. Bowl

Those in blue have abrim, am I right?

Re: brim vs rim

Delmobile — Mon, 19 May 2008 17:57:29 GMT

Yes, and years ago a coffee company capitalized on the confusion with the slogan, "Fill it to the rim...with Brim."

Re: brim vs rim

New2grammar — Mon, 19 May 2008 17:57:07 GMT

Can I say "the brim of the plate" since they are mostly round? Could you also mark those examples of mine that have brims?

Re: brim vs rim

Avangi — Mon, 19 May 2008 17:41:15 GMT

I know I'm gonna be sorry I got into this. Brim can be confusing because there's an idiom "full to the brim" or "brim full" which can be applied to just about anything you can put stuff in - things which you wouldn't say had brims.

Let's say they all have rims, and the round ones have brims.

You can say, "the rim of the canyon, the rim of the plateau, the rim of the plate, the rim of the desk." Some hats have brims.

brim vs rim

New2grammar — Mon, 19 May 2008 17:20:36 GMT

What's the difference between a brim and a rim? Below is a list of items, please tell me whether they have a rim or brim.

1. cup

2. mug

3. lunch box

4. glass

5. pot

6. baking pan

7. Bowl

Thanks!