ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: sequence

Avangi — Fri, 23 May 2008 02:13:58 GMT

Anonymous
I think iff the first clause didn't have the word 'first', then we could not make the assertion that the dog found the site first and later used the equipment to verify the result.

That's the long and the short of it.

Re: sequence

Anonymous — Fri, 23 May 2008 01:21:25 GMT

I think New2grammar said that, to him, a past perfect always precedes a present. It seems that is not always correct, isn't it??

CalifJim wrote:

To be sure, I think we'd need at least one paragraph that precedes this sentence.

Maybe the first part about the dogs should have read The sites had first been identified ..., but the author simplified the tense to the simple past because it was clear from context that the dogs were first and the testing next.

In isolation it's a strange sequence of tenses.

I think iff the first clause didn't have the word 'first', then we could not make the assertion that the dog found the site first and later used the equipment to verify the result. Sorry I couldn't paste the original sentence.

Re: sequence

optilang — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:39:13 GMT

Then my interpretation is that the dogs found the sites and then testing equipment was used on these sites to determine if the dogs had been correct

Re: sequence

RayH — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:35:06 GMT

CalifJim
To be sure, I think we'd need at least one paragraph that precedes this sentence.
Maybe the first part about the dogs should have read The sites had first been identified ..., but the author simplified the tense to the simple past because it was clear from context that the dogs were first and the testing next.
In isolation it's a strange sequence of tenses.
CJ

Here are the preceding and following paragraphs. It turns out that each paragraph is one sentence long. I'm not sure they shed much light on the situation.

In March, search crews found indications that human remains could be buried within a few yards of the ranch in Death Valley in east-central California.

The sites were first identified by cadaver dogs, and testing equipment had shown the possible presence of remains, police said.

Investigators used radar, magnetometers, lasers and other tools and techniques during the search, which included five "hot spots" where remains were thought to be.

Re: sequence

Avangi — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:25:18 GMT

No, but I don't blame you for asking. I expect the past perfect for the equipment use relates to some other past event in your piece.

I'd say the word "first" trumps the tense factor. Before the dogs, the "sites" as such were unknown.

Edit. Sorry guys, I got called away. This refers to the original question. A.

Re: sequence

New2grammar — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:23:12 GMT

In March, search crews found indications that human remains could be buried within a few yards of the ranch in Death Valley in east-central California.

The sites were first identified by cadaver dogs, and testing equipment had shown the possible presence of remains, police said.

Here's the article:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/21/manson.ranch/index.html

Re: sequence

CalifJim — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:19:06 GMT

To be sure, I think we'd need at least one paragraph that precedes this sentence.

In isolation it's a strange sequence of tenses.

Re: sequence

New2grammar — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:18:09 GMT

The event described by perfect tense should always go first, as far as I know.

Re: sequence

optilang — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:16:20 GMT

I can see both meanings here before and after - it is not clear to me from the sentence which came first

sequence

New2grammar — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:12:25 GMT

The sites were first identified by cadaver dogs, and testing equipment had shown the possible presence of remains, police said.

Does it mean equipment testing was performed before confirmation by the dogs?

Thanks in advance!