ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Pter — Sat, 31 May 2008 01:49:09 GMT

Yoong Liat
Pter
I wouldn't say "I married my wife" is incorrect. It is just incomplete.

I agree. Whether you see it as incomplete or lacking in context, the fact is "I married my wife", as it stands, is not logical.

Hi YL,

Then do you find my other examples illogical? For example,

We recruited our employees through an agent.

Note that at the time you recruited them, they were not yet employees. Can you re-write it by NOT using the word employee in a way that is logical to you and still sounds natural to most people?

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

english maven — Fri, 30 May 2008 23:24:35 GMT

Goodman
>>>First off, because you're a native speaker of English, doesn't mean you actually know the rules of English <<<<

Hi English maven,

On that note, I have 2 points to make. 1) I am not sure if you had noticed what I said in my last post. I am not a “native” by definition. However, if there is such a term, I may be called an “adapted native” who had learned English from the alphabets up and have worked over 20 years in the tech business. And secondly, your point is mine exactly. And I don’t mean this with disrespect but merely a fact. Many natives practice non-standard form of English. There is no need for apology. In forum like this, disagreement is common.

Let’s just say we agree to disagree. No harm done!

I know you're not a native speaker. When I said, "First off, because you're a native speaker of English, doesn't mean you actually know the rules of English..." I didn't mean you; I was making a generalization about native speakers. I agree, many native speakers don't have a clue about "proper" English. Now, I'm not saying I'm perfect, as I am still a student in high school. Regardless, I have enough (maybe even more) knowledge of the English language to be placed into honors English.

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Goodman — Fri, 30 May 2008 22:13:10 GMT

>>>First off, because you're a native speaker of English, doesn't mean you actually know the rules of English <<<<

Hi English maven,

On that note, I have 2 points to make. 1) I am not sure if you had noticed what I said in my last post. I am not a “native” by definition. However, if there is such a term, I may be called an “adapted native” who had learned English from the alphabets up and have worked over 20 years in the tech business. And secondly, your point is mine exactly. And I don’t mean this with disrespect but merely a fact. Many natives practice non-standard form of English. There is no need for apology. In forum like this, disagreement is common.

Let’s just say we agree to disagree. No harm done!

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

english maven — Fri, 30 May 2008 21:16:29 GMT

Goodman
english maven

I'm not - at all - saying it's incorrect by the rules of English,
(This response is directed to Goodman.)

Dear EM,
Your message is well taken. I can appreciate your especially delivered response. I sort of expected it that when I tossed in my two cents.
Perhaps it's because of my non-native origin, I had to pay extra attention to learning all the nitty-gritty aspects of English. From years of studies, I have learned that good and sensible English is governed, not only by grammar but also by logic and context, not by pickiness. Having said that, I’d like to clarify if this is in fact what you meant in your earlier post “Personally, for me, I find it incorrect usage”. That’s all!

First off, because you're a native speaker of English, doesn't mean you actually know the rules of English. I just want to clarify that. My friends and fellow students - native speakers - make a plethora of errors when speaking and writing, on numerous occasions. No one person will agree on everything, everyone is picky. For example, there is a sentence which is indeed alright without a comma, but it wouldn't hurt to place one in the sentence, it's your choice. This is decided on your personal preference or pickiness. Yes and no, I wouldn't use the word wife, but I wouldn't say using it would be incorrect. I guess I have to be more descriptive with people, I apologize.

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Goodman — Fri, 30 May 2008 20:30:14 GMT

english maven

I'm not - at all - saying it's incorrect by the rules of English,
(This response is directed to Goodman.)

Dear EM,
Your message is well taken. I can appreciate your especially delivered response. I sort of expected it that when I tossed in my two cents.
Perhaps it's because of my non-native origin, I had to pay extra attention to learning all the nitty-gritty aspects of English. From years of studies, I have learned that good and sensible English is governed, not only by grammar but also by logic and context, not by pickiness. Having said that, I’d like to clarify if this is in fact what you meant in your earlier post “Personally, for me, I find it incorrect usage”. That’s all!

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Goodman — Fri, 30 May 2008 19:01:17 GMT

Hi Optilang,

<<< I can see nothing wrong with either of the following (only when modified as follows): He married his girlfriend in 2005 who is now his wife.

To me, the logic of the context is more important than which one is correct. Either "he married his wife /^girlfriend" withoutthe supporting context, it's meaning is incomplete.

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

english maven — Fri, 30 May 2008 18:03:36 GMT

As I stated, maybe you didn't read it thoroughly, it's just my pickiness. I'm not - at all - saying it's incorrect by the rules of English, just my personal opinion.

(This response is directed to Goodman.)

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Yoong Liat — Fri, 30 May 2008 17:25:12 GMT

Pter
I wouldn't say "I married my wife" is incorrect. It is just incomplete.

I agree. Whether you see it as incomplete or lacking in context, the fact is "I married my wife", as it stands, is not logical.

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

New2grammar — Fri, 30 May 2008 17:14:17 GMT

Peter, I have to say your explanation is good. Thanks for your reply.

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Pter — Fri, 30 May 2008 17:11:14 GMT

I wouldn't say "I married my wife" is incorrect. It is just incomplete.

Why I married my wife?

I married my wife because ....

It is not necessary to have a specific date or reference to any event in the past.

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Yoong Liat — Fri, 30 May 2008 17:03:24 GMT

Hi Barbara

Aren't we saying the same thing? 'I married my wife' isn't correct. More context is needed.

' I married my wife in 2000' is fine. I agree.

What I did was to emphasise that more context is needed,

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Pter — Fri, 30 May 2008 14:54:33 GMT

optilang
I can't see anything wrong with - All/some employees of this company were recruited through an agent.

Yes, that's what I said so. The point is, if we take the past point of view and use "girlfriend", this sentence would need to be changed to "All applicants of this company were recruited through an agent.", which is not OK. Taking the past point of view would disrupt the reference for determining which people we are talking about.

How can you re-write the following sentence by NOT calling them "our employees" just because they were not yet employees before they were recruited by the company?

We recruited our employees through an agent.

I can't imagine how this is possible.

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Anonymous — Fri, 30 May 2008 14:43:33 GMT

yes

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

optilang — Fri, 30 May 2008 14:41:45 GMT

The contract was awarded to the current contractor last year. --> OK

The contract was awarded to the bidder last year. --> Not OK. Which bidder? There were 10 bidders!

I agree this is not ok, unless we know from the context which bidder is being referred to.

All employees of this company were recruited through an agent. --> OK

All applicants(???) of this company were recruited through an agent. ---> Not OK

I can't see anything wrong with - All/some employees of this company were recruited through an agent.

Re: wife/girlfriend...advance/further

Pter — Fri, 30 May 2008 14:19:37 GMT

How about the other examples? Don't you find them wierd when the past point of view is taken?

What I want to say is that the present point of view is necessary to make sure we know whom we are talking about. We are talking about "his wife" (as of today), the current contractor, the employees that are working in that company at this moment. These are the people we intend to talk about in such sentences.

optilang
Which girlfriend? He had 5 girlfriends at that time!
The one he married in 2005.

It doesn't work this way.

I read a book yesterday. Which book? You can't tell from the sentence. You can't say it's the book I read yesterday!