ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: What does it mean?

Mr Wordy — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 13:10:35 GMT

Palinkasocsi

Don't worry, I understand your pragmatic-theory problem since (and correct me if I'm wrong) you are not supposed to be a linguist. In everyday language pragmatic and theoretical are kind of opposites, pragmatic having something to do with practicality. In linguistics, however, pragmatics is the study of the aspects of meaning and language use that are dependent on the speaker, the addressee and other features of the context of utterance.

Hi Palinkasocsi,

You're correct. I wasn't aware of that meaning.

Re: What does it mean?

Palinkasocsi — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 09:51:19 GMT

Dear Avangi,

"instances of ironic speech"

Yes, you are absolutely right. I agree that sentences cannot be ironic, since irony is NOT a matter of language but has to do with conceptual integration (or blending), as it is termed in cognitive linguistics. In other words, irony is a matter of mindwork or conceptual problem solving.

Don't worry, in the literature of linguistics there is no consensus on whether sarcasm and irony are essentially the same thing or they differ significantly. Perhaps in some cases there is some overlap between the two. I would not say that an ironist is always sarcastic at the same time.

Thanks for the garden-example. It shows that if you are ironic, it does not mean that you mean the opposite of what you say, as most dictionary definitions of verbal irony assert.

Best,

Re: What does it mean?

Palinkasocsi — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 09:20:55 GMT

Dear Mr. Wordy,

Don't worry, I understand your pragmatic-theory problem since (and correct me if I'm wrong) you are not supposed to be a linguist. In everyday language pragmatic and theoretical are kind of opposites, pragmatic having something to do with practicality. In linguistics, however, pragmatics is the study of the aspects of meaning and language use that are dependent on the speaker, the addressee and other features of the context of utterance.

So, theories can also be pragmatic in this respect. In other words, I'm studying theories of irony from a pragmatic view of linguistics.

Anyways, thanks for the suggestions!

Best

Re: What does it mean?

Avangi — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 02:36:26 GMT

Thanks, GG. It may be hard to believe, but this is news to me. I'd call these examples pure sarcasm, having nothing to do with irony. I readily admit that irony exists (as a situation) in language, and is a handy tool for sarcasm.

I thank the comic strips (funny papers) for some of my early education. My first exposure to the word:

Wife complains to husband - "It's really hot here in the yard. I wish we had some shade." (reply) "That's ironic."

"I don't see what's ironic about it." (reply, pointing to stump) "I cut it down last winter so we could get the sun."

Re: What does it mean?

Grammar Geek — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 02:08:06 GMT

Hey, A., why don't you check out these links?

http://www.k-state.edu/english/baker/english320/cc-verbal_irony.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

Sarcasm is a sub-set.

Re: What does it mean?

Avangi — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 01:52:14 GMT

"instances of ironic speech"

"conversational irony"

My problem in trying to make sense of this is that I've never thought of a sentence (or even a statement or an expression) as being ironic. I think of situations as ironic. (It may fall to people to point out the irony of a situation.) I don't know if my problem is linguistic or cultural, or just stupidity.

When my wife was learning English (as a native Spanish speaker) she once accused me of being ironic. I finally discovered she meant I was being sarcastic. I thereafter assumed that in Spanish, "ironic" means [English] sarcastic, but I never actually verified it. I've always thought that people are sarcastic, along with the remarks/statements/expressions/sentences/phrases they create.

If anyone can enlighten me on this, I'd be grateful. - A.

Re: What does it mean?

CalifJim — Sat, 31 May 2008 16:02:00 GMT

Palinkasocsi
most theories have a limited sphere of explanatory sway because each has to face ironic sentences that they cannot explain

Do you think my original sentence is vague for this meaning?

Yes. I think you need something simpler. Something like (but not necessarily identical to) the following, perhaps:

Most theories are limited by an inability to explain ironic sentences.

Re: What does it mean?

Avangi — Sat, 31 May 2008 14:23:02 GMT

It's elegant - hard to ignore.

Re: What does it mean?

Mr Wordy — Sat, 31 May 2008 12:20:18 GMT

Test message. Please ignore.

Re: What does it mean?

Mr Wordy — Sat, 31 May 2008 11:05:57 GMT

Further, as attested by the occurrence of a number of theory-non-conforming instances of ironic speech, most purely pragmatic views of conversational irony have a limited sphere of explanatory sway.

I understand this to mean, more-or-less: "Most purely pragmatic explanations of how irony is used in conversation have limited use. This is evident from the fact that a number of instances of ironic speech do not conform to theory."

What's not clear to me is how the "pragmatic views" relate to the "theory". For the logic to work, the two have to be referring to the same thing (otherwise the fact that instances of ironic speech don't conform to theory says nothing very much about pragmatic explanations). The problem is that "pragmatic" specifically refers to something that is not theoretical. So, for me it doesn't quite make sense.

Most theories have a limited sphere of explanatory sway because each has to face ironic sentences that ~~they~~ it cannot explain.

To me, this sentence is easier to understand, and if it gets the job done for you then I'd tend to prefer it. It also avoids the pragmatic/theory confusion that I suffered with the first version.

Re: What does it mean?

Palinkasocsi — Sat, 31 May 2008 09:23:31 GMT

Hi, Philip,

What I wanted to say (because it was me actually who composed this sentence) is:

most theories have a limited sphere of explanatory sway because each has to face ironic sentences that they cannot explain

Do you think my original sentence is vague for this meaning?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks.

Re: What does it mean?

Philip — Fri, 30 May 2008 15:05:26 GMT

Experience shows that people who use sarcasm to get their point across aren't very persuasive. [Frankly, that's only a wild guess!]

What does it mean?

Palinkasocsi — Fri, 30 May 2008 14:55:34 GMT

Does anyone understand the following sentence? I just want to have a general understanding, to understand the basic logic of the sentence.

Any alternative wording?

Many thanks!