ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

EagerSeeker — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:06:19 GMT

Huevos
EagerSeeker
the do forms like "Do we go to lunch" are giving me a headache since I can't find any equivalents of my own language.
What language is that. "Do/does" is the default auxillary verb when asking a question in English; it adds nothing to the question.

Well, a good question, normally I have equivalents to do forms (for example, "What do you do for a living?") in my own language. But in "Do I/we... vs Shall/we" questions the situation seems to be different in English and I can't use do forms in the same way as I can use in my own language.

Are we going to lunch
Shall we go to lunch
Should we go to lunch
~~Do we go to lunch~~ (I would have had a neutral equivalent (which doesn't add nothing to a question) to this in my own language but on the basis of my dictionary (my Oxford dictionary suggests always the shall form) and the forum it just isn't possible and I have decided to apply that equivalent only to shall forms)

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Huevos — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:22:45 GMT

EagerSeeker
the do forms like "Do we go to lunch" are giving me a headache since I can't find any equivalents of my own language.

What language is that. "Do/does" is the default auxillary verb when asking a question in English; it adds nothing to the question.

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

EagerSeeker — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:30:07 GMT

Thank you guys,

I think I understand do forms better now with the help of these examples.

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Marius Hancu — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:16:42 GMT

My friend tells me that

"Do I/we go to lunch now?"

should be used only in case if you were wondering about a daily ritual.

He made no comments on:

"Are we going to lunch now?"

Hope this is more clear now.

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Mr Wordy — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:42:50 GMT

Marius Hancu

Mr Wordy

Marius Hancu
Mr. Wordy:

>You say to the person next to you: "Do I/we go to lunch now?"

Just curious, do you have anything against saying, in the same context:

"Are we going to lunch now?"

with the same meaning?

To me they're similar, but "Do I/we go to lunch now?" has a more conclusive sense that there's no option to go at any time other than the one prescribed.

Thanks. Interesting, but this is that (other?) English teacher tells me:

--------

You would ONLY say

"Do we go now ..."

if you were wondering about a daily ritual.

For instance, you go a new job and you're now sure what
time everyone goes for lunch. The present simple is for action in
general or habits.

-------

Hi again Marius

I'm not too sure I understand exactly where you think my opinion differs from that of your teacher. You seem to be saying that we agree on the use of "Do we go to lunch now?", so are you saying that we disagree on the use of "Are we going to lunch now?"?

Is your teacher saying that "Are we going to lunch now?" is not possible at all in the factory scenario? If so, then I do indeed disagree, and there is obviously a usage difference. To me, "Are we going to lunch now?" here has your "action in general" sense, with the idea that they are going because the bell rang clear from the context. (It also, incidentally, suggests rather more strongly that are going to lunch together -- to me, anyway.)

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Marius Hancu — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:54:40 GMT

Mr Wordy
Marius Hancu
Mr. Wordy:
>You say to the person next to you: "Do I/we go to lunch now?"

Just curious, do you have anything against saying, in the same context:

"Are we going to lunch now?"

with the same meaning?

To me they're similar, but "Do I/we go to lunch now?" has a more conclusive sense that there's no option to go at any time other than the one prescribed.

Thanks. Interesting, but this is that (other?) English teacher tells me:

--------

You would ONLY say

"Do we go now ..."

if you were wondering about a daily ritual.

For instance, you go a new job and you're now sure what
time everyone goes for lunch. The present simple is for action in
general or habits.

-------

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Mr Wordy — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:08:30 GMT

Marius Hancu
Mr. Wordy:
>You say to the person next to you: "Do I/we go to lunch now?"

Just curious, do you have anything against saying, in the same context:

"Are we going to lunch now?"

with the same meaning?

To me they're similar, but "Do I/we go to lunch now?" has a more conclusive sense that there's no option to go at any time other than the one prescribed.

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Marius Hancu — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:05:40 GMT

Mr. Wordy:

>You say to the person next to you: "Do I/we go to lunch now?"

Just curious, do you have anything against saying, in the same context:

"Are we going to lunch now?"

with the same meaning?

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Mr Wordy — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:08:16 GMT

EagerSeeker

Mr Wordy

In (1) and (2), I'd use "shall" to propose doing the thing mentioned and ask whether the other person agreed. I'd use "do" only if there was a set procedure to be followed, in order to ask whether I/we now ought to do the thing mentioned.

(3) is similar. The "shall" form asks for the other person's ideas; the "do" form suggests that there's a timetable of activities planned and asks what's scheduled for this weekend.

I have figured out that the following forms would be best for making suggestions about going, for example, to lunch.

I understand clearly what they mean or what are their equivalents in my own language.

Are we going to lunch?

Shall we go to lunch?

Should we go to lunch?

But :) the do forms like "Do we go to lunch" are giving me a headache since I can't find any equivalents of my own language.

And as I have understood, the meaning of do forms in this case (suggestions etc.) is too different to mean almost the same thing as

"Are we going...", "Shall we go..." and "Should we go...".

But would it possibly help if you could give me an example of a do form with an added word.

For example, because you said that "do form suggests that there's a timetable of activities planned and asks what's scheduled for this weekend",

you could give me an example like "Do we go to lunch as planned?"?.

It's probably worth just reiterating that the "generally/usually" meaning often associated with "Do you...?", "Does he...?, "Do they...?" etc. is normally unlikely (though not completely impossible) for "Do we...?" and "Do I...?". This is because, as mentioned, "we" and "I" are normally assumed to already know what "we" or "I" usually do.

Therefore, in "Do we...?" and "Do I...?", the meaning of "do" generally falls through to the next most likely possibility, which is often "Is it expected/required/planned that I/we do...?".

"Do we go to lunch as planned?" is fine. It implies that a plan to go to lunch was in place, but something has happened that might potentially disrupt that plan. You're asking whether the plan will still be followed, or whether other arrangements will need to be made.

Here's another example. It's your first day in a new job at a factory and you're unfamiliar with the procedures. At twelve o'clock a bell rings. You say to the person next to you: "Do I/we go to lunch now?". In other words, "Is it now expected/required/planned that I/we go to lunch?", or "Is now the time that I/we ought to go to lunch?"

Clarification added a short while later: I ought to make it clear that here I'm just talking about the use of "do we/I" with verbs that express concrete actions (such as going to lunch, sending a book etc.), as in your examples. Cases such as "Do we have ...", "Do we need ...", "Do we expect..." etc. etc. are different.

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Marius Hancu — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:11:28 GMT

I think that a good example would be:

When do you (generally/usually) go to lunch on Sundays?

At noon.

as here the usual/regular time is implied.

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

EagerSeeker — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 12:06:58 GMT

Mr Wordy

In (1) and (2), I'd use "shall" to propose doing the thing mentioned and ask whether the other person agreed. I'd use "do" only if there was a set procedure to be followed, in order to ask whether I/we now ought to do the thing mentioned.

(3) is similar. The "shall" form asks for the other person's ideas; the "do" form suggests that there's a timetable of activities planned and asks what's scheduled for this weekend.

I have figured out that the following forms would be best for making suggestions about going, for example, to lunch.

I understand clearly what they mean or what are their equivalents in my own language.

Are we going to lunch?

Shall we go to lunch?

Should we go to lunch?

But :) the do forms like "Do we go to lunch" are giving me a headache since I can't find any equivalents of my own language.

And as I have understood, the meaning of do forms in this case (suggestions etc.) is too different to mean almost the same thing as

"Are we going...", "Shall we go..." and "Should we go...".

But would it possibly help if you could give me an example of a do form with an added word.

For example, because you said that "do form suggests that there's a timetable of activities planned and asks what's scheduled for this weekend",

you could give me an example like "Do we go to lunch as planned?"?.

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Mr Wordy — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 00:40:48 GMT

You are absolutely right, for some reason, I didn't notice "this weekend", so of course you can't use "usually" in this case. Actually I meant "What do you we [usually] do at the weekend?" but is it any better?

"What do you do at the weekend?" would often be understood to mean "What do you [usually] do at weekends?". Even though "the weekend" is singular, it's assumed to refer to weekends generally as that's the easiest way to make sense of the question. If it's clear from context that one specific weekend is meant then "What do you do at the weekend?" would most likely mean "What are you going/planning to do at the weekend?".

"What do we do at the weekend?" means the same as "What do we do this weekend?", discussed earlier, except that it refers to any specific weekend, rather than necessarily this weekend (i.e. the coming weekend). If the context does not specifically indicate which weekend is meant, then "the weekend" normally defaults to "this weekend".

Though I can't use "usually" does the "What do we do this weekend" still refer to / give a hint of things we are doing usually/generally at weekends or at other times and perhaps now this weekend as well?

Not necessarily. It might be the same as what you usually do at weekends, or it might be something novel.

As to other examples, I made the following additions, still on the track?

"Do we go to lunch" means actually "Do we usually/generally go to lunch?"?

It theoretically could mean that, but it's unlikely as it implies that the speaker doesn't know whether he usually goes to lunch.

"Do I send you the book" means actually "Do I usually/generally send you the book?"?

Not likely, for the same reason again: the speaker will normally already know what he usually does and so doesn't need to ask.

Maybe I should now take a break to avoid getting on your nerves with stupid questions. :)

Not at all. That's what the forum is for! And this idiomatic stuff is very difficult. Even as a native speaker, I find it difficult to pin down some of these subtleties, and to think of all the circumstances in which one might use these phrases...

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

EagerSeeker — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:17:38 GMT

Mr Wordy

EagerSeeker

Mr Wordy

If you ask "What do we do this weekend?" then this implies that something has been arranged. You don't know what it is, but you're hoping that your companion does.

In other words, "What do we usually do this weekend?"?

Not really. It's not possible to "usually" do something this weekend. There's only one "this weekend", so "usually" can't apply. As a separate point, "usually" implies a past pattern of activity, so a person would be less likely to ask what we usually do. Normally he would already know. (There are various exceptions to this rule though.)

But you're on the right lines. "What do you do at weekends?" does indeed normally mean "What do you usually do at weekends?", or "What sorts of things do you do at weekends?"

As to other examples, I made the following additions, still on the track?

"Do we go to lunch" means actually "Do we usually/generally go to lunch?"?

"Do I send you the book" means actually "Do I usually/generally send you the book?"?

Maybe I should now take a break to avoid getting on your nerves with stupid questions. :)

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

Mr Wordy — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:00:38 GMT

EagerSeeker

Mr Wordy

If you ask "What do we do this weekend?" then this implies that something has been arranged. You don't know what it is, but you're hoping that your companion does.

In other words, "What do we usually do this weekend?"?

Not really. It's not possible to "usually" do something this weekend. There's only one "this weekend", so "usually" can't apply. As a separate point, "usually" implies a past pattern of activity, so a person would be less likely to ask what we usually do. Normally he would already know. (There are various exceptions to this rule though.)

But you're on the right lines. "What do you do at weekends?" does indeed normally mean "What do you usually do at weekends?", or "What sorts of things do you do at weekends?"

Re: Do I/we... vs Shall I/we...

EagerSeeker — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:56:50 GMT

Mr Wordy

If you ask "What do we do this weekend?" then this implies that something has been arranged. You don't know what it is, but you're hoping that your companion does.

In other words, "What do we usually do this weekend?"?