ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: marriage or marriages

Goodman — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:25:23 GMT

Grammar Geek

See, I disagree.

High-heeled shoes are uncomfortable.

Gay marriages are [fine][disgusting]. (I don't want to get into that debate, obviously.)

In both of these sentences, I'm not talking about specific instances at all. I'm using the term generically, just like "Lions are fierce hunters."

A lion is a fierce hunter. Lions are fierce hunters.
A high-heeled shoe is sexy. High-heeled shoes are sexy.
A gay marriage is a celebration of love. Gay marriages are a celebration of love.

Hi GG,

I am in full agreement with your examples in these contexts. Yes, they are correct.

Singular or plural can still be used in a generic sense.- Sure, but it's still contexts dependent in my opinion

I think most men, including me will just say  " high heels are sexy". That, however, is not a equal comparison to "gay marriage" as shoes come in pair so plural context is a given. What I try to say was, if we were talking about a social issue or a controversy, polygamy or abortion for instance, the subject matter should be discussed collectively as a generic term in singular reference, instead of plural. As this was backed by Google search “legalization of abortion” vs. “ legalization of abortions”. I don't mean to spawn a heavy discussion but I think these points are important. While these search results may not be the absolute true answers but they indicate a generic trend of usage.

21,700 for "court ruling on gay marriage" -singular reference           906 for "court ruling on gay marriages" -plural reference

76,800 for "legalization of abortion"- singular reference                4,640 for "legalization of abortions" - plural reference

42,000 for "opposition to same sex marriage"- singular reference       3,940 for "opposition to same sex marriages" -plural reference

Re: marriage or marriages

Yoong Liat — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:04:54 GMT

optilang

Therefore I think, marriage in the singular when talking about the condition/state and marriages (if there are more than one) when talking about the ceremony or act of marriage.

It should be '... there is more than one...'

Re: marriage or marriages

Grammar Geek — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:47:24 GMT

See, I disagree.

High-heeled shoes are uncomfortable.

Gay marriages are [fine][disgusting]. (I don't want to get into that debate, obviously.)

In both of these sentences, I'm not talking about specific instances at all. I'm using the term generically, just like "Lions are fierce hunters."

A lion is a fierce hunter. Lions are fierce hunters.
A high-heeled shoe is sexy. High-heeled shoes are sexy.
A gay marriage is a celebration of love. Gay marriages are a celebration of love.

Singular or plural can still be used in a generic sense.

Re: marriage or marriages

Goodman — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 05:56:47 GMT

<<>>Would you agree that in the statement "High-heeled shoes may look nice but damage the feet" is a generic statement?

But it's not an apple-to apple comparison.

I would call polygamy and Yoga is a generic term which is a way of life just like gay life style. But I still can't get connected to the “high-heeled shoes concept…..

Re: marriage or marriages

Grammar Geek — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 01:35:34 GMT

Would you agree that in the statement "High-heeled shoes may look nice but damage the feet" is a generic statement? It doesn't have to apply to any specific shoes, except those with high heels.

Re: marriage or marriages

Goodman — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:43:06 GMT

I am still having a difficult time seeing “marriages” as a concept or should I call it a generic term. To me “gay marriage” is a civil right to some, a controversy to many and a moral issue depending on one’s upbringing. Whichever the case may be, it’s singular in nature even though under this singularity lies many gay marriages. Communism is a concept / an ideology and a way of life and so I see “gay marriage” as a generic term and therefore should be interpreted as singular entity in general referral. That’s one man’s opinion.

Re: marriage or marriages

Avangi — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:06:53 GMT

I agree with those who have said they're comfortable with "marriages" as a "concept/generic term."

Re: marriage or marriages

optilang — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:54:50 GMT

I think

marriage - the condition of a couple legally united

marriage - the ceremony by which the condition is created.

Therefore I think, marriage in the singular when talking about the condition/state and marriages (if there are more than one) when talking about the ceremony or act of marriage.

Re: marriage or marriages

Avangi — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:42:32 GMT

New2grammar
As far as I know singular and plural are words associated with countable.

Absolutely correct, but that doesn't stop us from saying that we use the singular form when indicating the abstract/concept/generic meanings of nouns.

In the sentence, "He wrote an article about the child in conflict with modern society," "child" is singular. (I may say this without evoking countable/uncountable.)

- A.

Re: marriage or marriages

CalifJim — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 04:03:54 GMT

Anonymous
Is it right to say that marriages are abstract and uncountable?

No. The fact that you've used the plural marriages means it's countable. Any plural form you see indicates that the noun is countable. Uncountable (or noncountable) nouns do not occur in the plural.

Re: marriage or marriages

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:48:28 GMT

Is it right to say that marriages are abstract and uncountable?

Re: marriage or marriages

New2grammar — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:04:29 GMT

AH... I see. Thanks Avangi.

Re: marriage or marriages

Avangi — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:52:51 GMT

I agree they all apply. It's just a matter of habit - which I've learned from this site: when the subject of "countable / uncountable" comes up it's usually to solve a problem with the articles - i.e., that seems to be the focus. I sensed that your focus in this case was directed more toward semantics.

Re: marriage or marriages

New2grammar — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:12:08 GMT

Generic? That's an interesting choice of word for a word. I've always used it for drugs.

In the field of grammar, abstract nouns (such as beauty, democracy, love -some of these are countable as well) are categorized under 'uncountable' or 'mass noun'. Maybe I've forgotten what I've learned. I'll look for the thread. Thanks Avangi for clarifying this.

Re: marriage or marriages

Avangi — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:42:34 GMT

Yoong Liat
New2grammar
It is possible to use the uncountable in the first sentence?
What do you mean by 'uncountable'?

Hi N2g, Your terminology threw me for a minute too.

uncountable / abstract / concept / generic These adjectives have different meanings/connotations in different contexts.

I believe Huevos is correct, that the one we need here is "generic." I've been looking for it myself. I use the word every day, but in other contexts.

It came up when I first joined the site. I think CJ brought it up. I've been trying to remember it for months. Thanks, Huevos.

N2g, try a search for "generic" on our site. There's some great stuff dating back a couple of years (before my time.)

I believe "concept" runs a close second in the uses we're talking about here. They might even be tied. "Abstract" and "uncountable" tend to send us in other directions on this site, although they certainly apply.

- A.