ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: until now

Mr Wordy — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:34:03 GMT

Tuongvan
To sum up, can we say as follows?:

Until now + present perfect(continuous) : the action in the present perfect (continuous) in still continuing at the present moment .

-He is incorruptible .That 's why ,Until now ,he has been living in that rickety house (He is still living in it now )

Until now+ simple past (continuous): the action in the simple past(continuous) is not continuing at the present moment.' Until now 'in this case is similar in meaning to 'until recently'.

-He is incorruptible .That 's why ,Until now (=until recently) ,he was still living in that rickety house (He is not living in it now ).

I would appreciate it very much if you give your comments

In this context, "until now" strongly suggests that he has just moved, is in the process of moving, or is just about to move. So, the question is: does the choice of "was" or "has been" influence this range of possibilities? The presence or absence of "still" is another complicating factor.

I think I might have looked at this construction so much now that I no longer actually know what I think, but here's my best shot. Others may take a different view!

1. Until now, he has been living... -- allows all possibilities (just moved, moving, just about to move).

2. Until now, he has still been living... -- could allow all possibilities, the same as (1), with "still" suggesting that he stayed in the old house longer than might have been expected; or "still" could be emphasising that he is living there up to and including the present moment.

3. Until now, he was living... -- I guess this must, as you say, mean that he has already (recently) moved, but it doesn't sound quite right to me.

4. Until now, he was still living... -- same as (3), except "still" presumably must mean that he stayed in the old house longer than might have been expected (because of "was", it can't mean that he is still living there up to and including the present moment).

To me, there is an awkwardness about using "until now" with "living", which is more pronounced with versions (3) and (4). In fact, version (4) really just sounds like bad English to me.

Re: until now

Tuongvan — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:01:56 GMT

Thank you very much Mr Wordy and Avangi for having taking the trouble to help me resolve the problem.
To sum up, can we say as follows?:

Until now + present perfect(continuous) : the action in the present perfect (continuous) in still continuing at the present moment .

-He is incorruptible .That 's why ,Until now ,he has been living in that rickety house (He is still living in it now )

Until now+ simple past (continuous): the action in the simple past(continuous) is not continuing at the present moment.' Until now 'in this case is similar in meaning to 'until recently'.

-He is incorruptible .That 's why ,Until now (=until recently) ,he was still living in that rickety house (He is not living in it now ).

I would appreciate it very much if you give your comments

Best wishes

Re: until now

Mr Wordy — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:49:54 GMT

Hi Avangi,

A few more musings...

To me, "until now" implies that the engines, though previously uncommon, have recently become common (or at least more common), or are about to become common very soon. Although "until now" signifies a change that happens "now", in practice it might mean that the uncommonness persists to the present moment or it might not, depending on context. For example, it could be used following an announcement that a company was planning to go into high-volume production, even though the engines had not yet been built. Or it could be used after a moderate number of these engines had been built (when the commonness of the engines is ambiguous), or after a significant number of engines had been built, with the meaning "until recently, but not any more".

To me, the indication of when the engines were/will be common/uncommon is determined (albeit slightly ambiguously) by the words "until now", and the choice of "were/have been" then just has to fit this. "Have been" seems to suit -- meaning that they were uncommon recently enough for their uncommonness to still be relevant to the present situation, possibly, but not necessarily, including the case that they are uncommon at this moment. You'd expect "were" to push us back further into the past, and suggest more strongly that they are no longer uncommon at this moment, but I don't personally get much of a sense of this because "until now" dominates. Even if that meaning is wanted, "were" still feels slightly odd to me -- it somehow seems to jar with "until now". But I'd struggle to make a case that "were" is actually wrong.

To me, the possibility that the engines were uncommon for one or a few brief periods in the past seems an unlikely one, and I agree with you that both tenses signify a continuous condition of uncommonness.

Re: until now

Avangi — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:01:11 GMT

I can't explain why your dictionary seems to be pushing you toward the "up to and including the present" interpretation. Simple past seems to move away from including the present.

The example in your most recent post is of the type I'm claiming is most common in my experience. That is, "until now" marks the point of change (now/the present) from uncommon to common.

In my opinion, both were uncommon and have been uncommon would mean exactly the same thing in this example. What they clearly do not mean here is that the uncommonness continues in the present.

If I understand what you're telling me about your dictionary entry, it simply does not comport with the way "until now" is typically used.

I am embarrassed to find that a Google search seems to support your dictionary's choice of tense: "have been * until now" 69,400 / "were * until now" 17,200 - Your dictionary wins by four to one!

The only significant difference I can see between the tenses, is that have been uncommon until now really means this condition has existed continuously until now; while were uncommon until now could mean that the condition existed at one or a few brief periods in the past. My personal inclination is to interpret both tenses as meaning the condition was continuous until the present.

I expect CJ could make short work of this.

Edit. Hi Mr. Wordy! I missed your latest, until just now. I'm still struggling with this, as you can see.

Interestingly enough, the fact that small biodiesel engines are common now is only implied, rather than specifically stated. I take "until now" as the chief agent of that implication.

Re: until now

Mr Wordy — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:30:05 GMT

Tuongvan
Biogas has historically been used in internal combustion engines. However, the use has been limited to large-sized engines which use gas extracted from dumping grounds or sewage. Until now, small-sized engines using biogas were uncommon.

Why is the simple past ,not the present perfect , used here? What does 'until now' mean here when ' were common' is used? Is there any difference in meaning if ' have been common ' is used in its stead?

To me, there is no difference in meaning here. I personally prefer "have been", but I think that a case could be made for either. Compare the following:

Until last year, small-sized engines using biogas were uncommon. = they were uncommon until some point in the past, then they became more common.

In recent years, small-sized engines using biogas have been uncommon. = they were uncommon in the past and they are still uncommon.

Now, with "until now", which should we use? Is the "now" at which they became more common a point in the past, so we should use "were"? Or does "until now" extend sufficiently to the present that we should use "have been"?

Re: until now

Tuongvan — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:05:20 GMT

Thank you Avangi very much for having tried to help solve the problem.Now I just found another case using 'until now' with the simple past (normally my dictionary says until now is used with the present perfect ):

Why biogas?

In Viet Nam, biogas - an alternative fuel for cooking - has been used widely since the 1980s. In the early 21st century it became more popular thanks to the assistance of developed countries working to alleviate green house effects. Viet Nam was honoured by the United Nations for its effort in environmental protection by developing biogas in 2006.

Biogas has historically been used in internal combustion engines. However, the use has been limited to large-sized engines which use gas extracted from dumping grounds or sewage. Until now, small-sized engines using biogas were uncommon.

Why is the simple past ,not the present perfect , used here? What does 'until now' mean here when ' were common' is used? Is there any difference in meaning if ' have been common ' is used in its stead?

Best wishes

Re: until now

Avangi — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:26:52 GMT

New2grammar
another joke? Please share

I keep double-p-ing "apartment," which is reminiscent of its French etymology. (I've been expecting Yoong to get me on it.) Sorry, no joke. Will you settle for an old pun? She criticized my apartment, so I knocked her flat. (maybe you've heard it)

Re: until now

Mr Wordy — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:21:33 GMT

Tuongvan
Suppose we are talking about Mr .White who is a long time government high-ranking official .He is very good man .He never uses his power for his personal gain .He is living in a small rickety house now.

Should I say like (a) or (b) or (c) below:?

a/ Mr White is a very incorruptible official .That's why he is still living in a small rickety house now.
b/ Mr White is a very incorruptible official that is why ,until now ,he was still living in a small rickety house .
c/Mr White is a very incorruptible official that is why ,until now ,he has still been living in a small rickety house.

I agree with Avangi.

(a) is correct (but you don't really need "now" at the end of the sentence).

(b) and (c) are wrong, because "until now" implies that his situation has changed very recently.

Even if his status had recently changed, I still would not like (b) or (c) for the reasons I mentioned earlier. (b) and (c) also need a full stop after "official".

(Incidentally, you have a few problems with your use of spaces. The space should go after the dot or comma, not before. You also have several places where you've typed multiple spaces between words, when there should only be one.)

Re: until now

New2grammar — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:35:01 GMT

Avangi
plz excuse the French spelling

What do you mean, Avangi? Is this another joke? Please share it with me. I love jokes and you seem to have a lot funny lines

Re: until now

Avangi — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:01:54 GMT

I'm really sorry not to be able to pin this down. I definitely feel it's unresolved. Don't give up. Someone may yet explain it to the satisfaction of both of us.

BTW, plz excuse the French spelling. I tried to correct it but was too late.

Re: until now

Tuongvan — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:52:42 GMT

Thank you Avangi very much

Re: until now

Avangi — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:48:48 GMT

My recommendation would be a/. To me, the other two make no sense. In my opinion, they're cases where "until now" marks a change in status.

If you wish to stress both the continued and the continuing, you could say, "That's why (even now / to this day) he is still living in a small etc." But that sounds redundant, doesn't it?

- A.

Re: until now

Tuongvan — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:11:46 GMT

Hi teachers,
Suppose we are talking about Mr .White who is a long time government high-ranking official .He is very good man .He never uses his power for his personal gain .He is living in a small rickety house now.

Should I say like (a) or (b) or (c) below:?

a/ Mr White is a very incorruptible official .That's why he is still living in a small rickety house now.
b/ Mr White is a very incorruptible official that is why ,until now ,he was still living in a small rickety house .
c/Mr White is a very incorruptible official that is why ,until now ,he has still been living in a small rickety house.

Thank you in advance

Re: until now

Mr Wordy — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 01:51:36 GMT

To me, "until now, I was still living..." is just poor English.

If it's supposed to mean that he moved somewhere else very recently, then "until now, I have been living..." or "until now, I was living..." are both possibilities, but I don't much like either. Although "now" can be vaguer than "this instant", it still seems too abrupt and unlikely a time to suddenly stop living in one place and begin living in another. I would choose another form of words, such as "until recently/very recently/yesterday/last week, I was living...". (Edit: Or "until recently/etc. ... I was still living", if the intention of "still" is to suggest that he continued to live in the inherited apartment beyond the time he might have been expected to have left it.)

To indicate that I was still living in the apartment, I would simply say "I am still living...".

Re: until now

Avangi — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 00:57:07 GMT

Hi Tuongvan, I believe I see how you're looking at it.

When I hear, "until now," I take it as a signal of change. "Now" is a point in time, or perhaps a block in time, the begining of which saw some clear change.

It doesn't have to be negative. "I never understood why she hated me until just now." (Damn, I suppose that's ambiguous too. I don't mean she hated me until just now. I mean I never understood until just now.)

It definitely does not mean, "up to and including now."

- A.

Edit. I guess I've heard it your way. Where were you? I've been looking everywhere for you! (reply) I've been right here up until the present time. (It doesn't mean "now I'm gone.")

Perhaps someone else can provide a fresh look at this, or a traditional one which I'm not aware of. I do see your point.