ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: creams and detergents

Mister Micawber — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 04:26:09 GMT

.
Different detergent creams serve widely different purposes (it is a very general term) and have very different ingredients. Here are some:

1-- An efficient disinfecting detergent cream is prepared from several kinds of non-ionic surfactant and bioenzymes

2-- a 3 per cent hexachlorophane detergent cream (Disfex)

3-- a kind of multi-purpose waterfree detergent cream, which includes surfactant, skin protecting agent, alkaline accelerator, deionized or distilled water as well as anti-icing agent , anti-septics and anti-ammonia agent.

4-- Phisohex (3% hexachlorophane in detergent cream)

5-- Barrier-detergent cream “Comfort” is a dermatological method of individual protection. It is a perfumed aqueous mixture of film-forming compounds and filling agents with antiseptic and emollient components.

Re: creams and detergents

Anonymous — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 02:58:05 GMT

please say me.
I make detergent cream,but t don't think formula.Please say formula and consist chemicals.

email deleted by moderator

Re: creams and detergents

Goodman — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:12:51 GMT

Hi MM,

Aside from the Google results which can be skewed by how the query was made. I think I can agree to a certain extent with respect to the “cream and wine” discussion. Is it because something is deemed as correct, even though folks are using the language improperly but accepted as the standard or the norm, or it's changing to simplify the complexity. Sure, we hear it and I am too guilty saying it. Can I have two white wines ? My point yesterday was, if I had to make a reference with someone using alot of creams, I said I would refer to creams as “cream products”. That’s was the context I made my argument in. In fact, I also had a discussion with my wife. She said “coffee cream?”. I think we had enough “creams and wines” in this discussion and the points are understood. Thanks for you comments.

Re: creams and detergents

Mister Micawber — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:59:17 GMT

Hello, Goodman,

I'm sorry that I cannot read all of your post because of the various formatting, but what I can read of it seems accurate. To encapsulate the 'correct' guidelines:

May I have 2 waters and soups?”. I know we hear that all the time but if we are discussing the whether a particular usage is grammatically correct

You have answered your own question-- we hear it all the time, so it is grammatically correct. How else could we accept 'Everyone please hand in their papers' ?

The revision that you list seems precisely correct (if I may insert a word that I do not see there): Count nouns and [noncount] nouns used in a count sense can be pluralized; noncount nouns and nouns used in a noncount sense cannot.

Re: creams and detergents

New2grammar — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:41:04 GMT

I think there's no right and wrong. It depends on whether the uncountable is used as a countable noun by native speakers. I know Americans count waters (bottled water), coffees (different kinds or multiple cups), toothpaste (context dependent). So I agree with Kooyen that logically, most uncountables can be used as countables. Regarding being natural, that depends on whether natives use them and I believe it's regional too. If an uncountalbe is not accepted today, it may be acceptable in the future when somebody, maybe a celebrity, starts using it and the usage spreads. Nothing is impossible Just my humble opinion.

Re: creams and detergents

Kooyeen — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:20:00 GMT

I'd say I agree with MrM. My dictionary (Longman) lists those words saying [C or U], which means they can be treated as countable or uncountable nouns, generally speaking. Anyway, even for the uncountable words it doesn't explicitly list as countable too, I think we can say uncountable nouns can often be "categorized" and used with an article. I can't be sure, but I'd say a sentence like this is ok, for example: I've never heard an English like that. = I've never heard a kind of English like that.
By the way, another reason why certain uncountable nouns are often used as countable nouns might be that lots of commercial products are sold in its own container, and uncountable product + container = countable product. A soda. A cream. But this doesn't seem to work for every product, I'm afraid.
Just my opinion.

EDIT: I just read Goodman's post, and I started to think of "waters" to mean two "portions" of water, two bottles, whatever. It seems reasonable, if you think of beers and sodas, but that's exactly the kind of thing I'm not sure about yet. So I searched the net and... I was so lucky! Look, GG says "two waters" at the restaurant, so I guess it's ok to treat it as countable in that context, like other uncountable things.
http://www.englishforums.com/English/SoupEating/clhqn/post.htm

Re: creams and detergents

Goodman — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:19:09 GMT

Mr. Miclawer,

I wasn’t going to expand this pluralization discussion on “creams” and “wines”.
But it really bothered the heck out of me for two reasons.
1) I really wanted to find out if I was really blowing hot air on this subject
because of my misunderstanding of this topic, and 2) if there is another side of the usage
I am not aware of.
This is perhaps not relevant to the discussion but to establish my point, I think it needs
to be said. Mrs. Milton whom I learned English from was an excellent English teacher who
also had taught for 5 years at the Beijing University, which is a top University in China, by
invitation of the Government. Many of her students had landed positions working for the
Chinese Government and the U.N. as translators and interpreters. I was very blessed to be
among her students. Most of my English foundation was learned from her. And I was really
surprised to see your examples pluralizing “cream” and “wine”. By your earlier examples, which I
compared with the information found on the WEB, I must ask this question. Am I to understand
that it’s completely grammatical to say in a restaurant “may I have 2 waters and soups?”. I know
we hear that all the time but if we are discussing the whether a particular usage is grammatically
correct, running into this type of scenario is inevitable. Here are some “supports” you had
asked for which may not may not be validated to your satisfaction. No doubt, you are the
English authority and perhaps possess “superiority” over many frequented this forum and I don’t
mean to sound like challenging your examples, let alone to waste anymore of your time.
Nonetheless, as a serious learner, I’d owe the real answers to myself and the learners if I just
accepted your answers as given. I may be wrong with my search result and you are correct.
And If so, here is my “advanced apology”.

Nouns only countable nouns can be either singular or plural. ... He had some ice cream on
his face. He had an ice cream. mass. countable ...
www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/tta/wc/nouns.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

http://ajaja.paradoxinc.org/Basic/Grammar/CountAndNoncount.ht

Liquids: beer, milk, coffee, blood, cream, juice, honey, gasoline, oil, shampoo, soup, tea, water, wine.

Solids and semi-solids: Bread, butter, cheese, ice, ice cream, lettuce, toast, meat, beef, chicken, fish, ham, lamb, pork, chalk, 
copper, cotton, glass, gold, iron, , soap, tin, toothpaste, wood, wool,

http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/grammar/countnon.html

A Revision of the RulesThe exceptions require that the rule for pluralizing be revised: count nouns and nouns used 
in a count sense can be pluralized; noncount nouns and nouns used in a noncount sense cannot.

	Pluralizes with -s	Does not Pluralize
Count Noun	X
Count Use	X
Noncount Noun		X
Noncount Use		X

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080425090142AAom2ui

Answers (4)

If coffee is an uncountable noun, cream certainly is by common sense. Thus the rule applies.

· Answerer 1

Many nouns can be used as countables or uncountables. It depends on whether you are thinking of a substance or
a single serving or object made of the substance. So:

Beer is fattening (uncountable - the substance)
Don't drink more than three beers a day. (Countable - servings)

I love chocolate (uncountable - the substance)
Get me a box of chocolates (countable - individual pieces)

A vase made of blown glass (uncountable - the substance)
A glass of wine (A single piece / artifact)

Coffee gives me indigestion (the substance - uncountable)
I need at least three coffees to wake up on a morning (countable - individual servings)

2 months ago

http://www3.law.cuny.edu/wc/students/multilingual/articles.html

Uncountable nouns often refer to drinks and food, other general substances, or concepts (meat, tea, steel, information, justice):

Examples of Uncountable Nouns in English:

Food and Drink: bacon, beef, beer, bread, butter, cabbage, candy, cauliflower, chicken, chocolate, coffee, corn,
cream, fish, fruit, juice, lettuce, meat, milk, oil, pasta, rice, salt, spinach, sugar, tea, water, whiskey, wine, yogurt.
General Substances: air,cement, clay, coal, copper, dirt, dust, foam, gasoline, gold, ice, leather, paper, petroleum,
plastic, rain, rubber, silver, soap, steel, wood, wool.
Abstract nouns: abandonment, access, adultery, advice, alimony, anger, anguish, arson, authentication, beauty, capacity,
conduct, confidence, courage, deprivation, desperation, discretion, employment, empowerment, evidence, extortion, fortune,
fun, happiness, health, honesty, housing, information, insurance, intelligence, intent, knowledge, land, love, malice, negligence,
poverty, privacy, real estate, sadness, satisfaction, strength, truth, wealth.
Others: biology, clothing, darkness, equipment, furniture, gossip, homework, jewelry, luggage, machinery, mail, money, music,
news, poetry, pollution, research, scenery, traffic, transportation, violence, weather, weight, work.

Some uncountable nouns (except for concepts) can be turned into countable nouns by preposing a phrase to them
(two bottles of wine, a bar of soap, a piece of information, an act of violence, a burst of anger, a piece of evidence).

e.g. The defendant's lawyer is sure the judge will accept new evidence in this case.

vs. The defendant's lawyer is sure the judge will accept three new pieces of evidence in this case.

Some uncountable nouns can be used in the plural, but their meaning changes:

experience / experiences: e.g., He had to rely on experience / I lived unforgettable experiences

Re: creams and detergents

Mister Micawber — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:39:08 GMT

.
Cream is countable or uncountable according to the on-line Cambridge:

4 [C or U] a soft substance that you rub into your skin

Now, stop wasting my time.

Re: creams and detergents

Yoong Liat — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:30:44 GMT

'Cream' is an uncountable noun according to Collins Cobuild English Dictionary for Advanced Learners and Times-Chambers Essential English Dictionary.

Re: creams and detergents

Mister Micawber — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:47:45 GMT

.
What I offered you was some reasonably reputable on-line examples of creams as a countable noun, Goodman, to support -- obviously -- my own belief that it is perfectly acceptable. What I would like is to see some sort of support for your viewpoint.

Ms Google gives us:

3,770 for "a lot of creams"
1 for "a lot of cream products"

Re: creams and detergents

Goodman — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:38:08 GMT

Hi MM,
((( ))) PS (for Goodman's benefit):

Thanks for the kind and generous offer. I don't know if "creams" is considered good where you are. I am afraid "creams" doesn't work too well or sound too acceptable in this nick of the woods
I still prefer "a lot of cream products" over "creams" or a bottle of Chilean wine" over "a Chilean wine". Nontheless, very kind of you to offer.

Re: creams and detergents

Mister Micawber — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:28:44 GMT

.
PS (for Goodman's benefit):

there are a lot of creams out in the market which are proven to be good enough
A lot of creams don’t do a whole lot, so it is important to do good research before buying one.
there are a lot of creams you can get from a dermatologist
I've tried a lot of creams in the fight against cellulite.
You can find a lot of creams and lotions in the market
There are a lot of creams that make promises that are unattainable
If you react to a lot of creams, your GP may suggest a visit to a dermatologist

etc

Re: creams and detergents

Mister Micawber — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:13:36 GMT

.
The article is not always 'needed', but it can be used when you categorize an uncountable. You must put your examples into sentences-- contexts-- to begin understanding this. In your examples, the pepperoni and Chilean and washing are irrelevant:

(Pepperoni) pizza / (Chilean red) wine is delicious.
I ordered (a) (pepperoni) pizza / (a) (Chilean red) wine.

You don't 'need' an article for washing cream either-- unless you wish to speak of a specific one: then it is recategorized:

(Washing) cream is expensive.
I always use (washing) cream
This (washing) cream is expensive.
I want to buy a cheap (washing) cream.

It is simply that when we identify uncountables with adjectives, we are tending to recategorize within the context-- we are separating X cream from cream in general, so we are more likely to be recategorizing.

Re: creams and detergents

Goodman — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:08:40 GMT

pepperoni pizza -- no article needed.- Not trying to confuse you, but I can order "a peperroni pizza".
But "I like pizza" - pizza is a collective noun used in a general statement.

Cream, as wel las wine" ( among many nouns) is used in singular context, no "s", We can say " my sister uses a lot of cream prodcuts". but not "creams"

Re: creams and detergents

Anonymous — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:39:01 GMT

Thank you again.

What troubles me is my inability to distinguish what causes secondary recategoriztion and what cause primary (right term?) categorization, which results in no need for an article.

My favorite food is pizza. I assume pizza is a variable noun and not a mass noun like cream or detergent, but I think the same approach can be used in respect to figuring out whether a thing is susceptible to primary (?) or secondary categorization.

pepperoni pizza -- no article needed.
red Chilenian wine -- again no article needed -- I don't know whether there is a wine name like this tough

But,
a washing cream -- why the article is needed? washing, pepperoni, red Chilenian-- how are they different? Why one trigger a recategorization and others don't? What do I have to do to make choices correctly?

ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: creams and detergents

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Re: creams and detergents

Mr. Miclawer,

Nouns only countable nouns can be either singular or plural. ... He had some ice cream on his face. He had an ice cream. mass. countable ...www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/tta/wc/nouns.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080425090142AAom2ui

Answers (4)

Re: creams and detergents

Re: creams and detergents

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Re: creams and detergents

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Re: creams and detergents

Re: creams and detergents

Nouns only countable nouns can be either singular or plural. ... He had some ice cream on
his face. He had an ice cream. mass. countable ...
www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/tta/wc/nouns.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages