ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Cool Breeze — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:41:26 GMT

Avangi

BTW, where do you stand on Absolut?

I think it's almost as good as Finlandia.

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Avangi — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:37:34 GMT

Thanks, Cool Breeze - and for being a nonconformist.

BTW, where do you stand on Absolut?

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Cool Breeze — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:30:56 GMT

Avangi
Perhaps I should learn what "absolute" implies in this context - not relative? That is, not compared to anything else? I guess that would fit.

Your guess is correct, Avangi. The term "relative superlative" is rarely used even in Finland, but it does exist here. I suppose European grammarians think it's enough to distinguish the two superlatives if one of them has a modifier (absolute).

I think the development of the absolute superlative would have been different if there had been a Language Academy in England about 600 years ago. (There isn't one even now.) No doubt the members of the academy would have realized what a mess the absolute superlative was in English and would at least have tried to make some amendments. Nowadays the usage is too settled for anyone to do anything about it. The British have a dislike for such an academy, which just results from the fact that there never was one. Had there been one centuries ago, the British would embrace it today the way they go for other traditions. In France the equivalent academy did a good job of standardizing French spelling in the early days of the printing press.

Usage is interesting sometimes. People say: He was most kind. However, I don't think native speakers very often say: The performance was most great. Yet there is absolutely nothing ungrammatical in the sentence. We have "most" + a monosyllabic adjective in each sentence. In fact, the performance was most great is a sentence I might say because I am a kind of nonconformist who dislikes the idea that I should be restricted to the generally accepted phrases used by native speakers.

It is understandable that one can't change the rigid word order of English as there are hardly any inflections. One can play with some other features of the language, though.

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Avangi — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 19:05:15 GMT

Cool Breeze
There are various terms for things.

Hi CB. I'm having more doubts. Anonymous wrote, "without the definite or infinite article." When I first read that I said, "Dang, I should look that up," but I was really tired and let it slide.

Looking at it now, I'm thinking "infinite" has a ring to it like "absolute." Did I miss another one?

(Just kidding. The devil made me do it.)

Best regards, - A.

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Avangi — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:37:24 GMT

Anonymous
Thank you Why one has an article and one doesn't?

The most erroneous concepts

These/They are most/very erroneous concepts.

Is the word 'most' here is not a superlative? When is it an adjective and when is it a superlative?

He is the most handsome man I have ever met.

First, let me call your attention to CB's correction. "Very" is an adverb, not an adjective, and it probably always was. "Most" is an adjective when it modifies a noun (Most people can swim.), but in the two quite different usages we've been talking about here, it's an adverb.

1. This is a most beautiful rose. ("most beautiful" = "very beautiful", singular rose, indefinite article)
     These are most beautiful roses. ("most beautiful" = "very beautiful,"  plural roses, no article)
     These are some most beautiful roses. ("most beautiful" = "very beautiful," plural roses, optional indefinite article)

2. This is the most beautiful rose in the garden. ("most beautiful" = superlative, singular rose,  definite article)
     These are two of the most beautiful roses in the garden. ("most beautiful" = superlative, plural roses, definite article)

Please note that your examples, This is a most erroneous concept, and These are most erroneous concepts are of the first type, and are not superlatives. You could say, These are some most erroneous concepts. The "some" is optional.

Best wishes, - A.

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Avangi — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:15:37 GMT

Thanks, CB. I've known all my life that adverbs modify adjectives, and have said so in these fora. Oh, well.

When I was writing that, I was remembering a thread in which most = very came up, so it seemed like safe ground. "Absolute superlatives" weren't broached then, and I'm indebeted to you for my introduction. (The thread was something like, "a most beautiful rose," and a moderator pointed out that "most" had nothing to do with rank - any more than "very" would. Perhaps I should learn what "absolute" implies in this context - not relative? That is, not compared to anything else? I guess that would fit. Yet it seems to fly in the face of "superlative.")

Thanks again for the catch, and for the (new to me) info about absolute superlatives. - A.

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Cool Breeze — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:50:16 GMT

Avangi

In your sentence, "It is a most erroneous concept," "most erroneous" is not a superlative. "Most" is just an adjective, like "very."

Hi Avangi

There are various terms for things. Most grammarians call very an adverb when it is before an adjective: very good.

Many people call "a most erroneous concept" an absolute superlative. Native grammarians often say there is no such thing in English. I have always thought this is because the absolute superlative, which to my mind exists in English, is such a mess compared with other languages. Another reason may be that some native English grammarians don't have a knowledge of the grammatical structures of other languages and thus don't really have a clue what the absolute superlative consists in. I have dealt with the absolute superlative before. Anyone who is interested, will find it HERE.

Cheers, CB

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 04:56:05 GMT

Thank you Why one has an article and one doesn't?

The most erroneous concepts

These/They are most/very erroneous concepts.

Is the word 'most' here is not a superlative? When is it an adjective and when is it a superlative?

He is the most handsome man I have ever met.

Re: SUPERATIVE?

Avangi — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 04:01:19 GMT

Use the definite article with both singular and plural superlatives.

The best runners

The most erroneous concepts

In your sentence, "It is a most erroneous concept," "most erroneous" is not a superlative. "Most" is just an adjective, like "very."

Perhaps you knew that. These/They are most/very erroneous concepts. This is fine.

Best wishes, - A.

SUPERATIVE?

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:30:16 GMT

Hi,

I think normally when superatives are involved, you will use the definite article like this.

He is the best runner in my school.

Then, how can we turn it into many best runners -- I think it's possible?

They are best runners in my school?

Should I include the definite article in this situation too? I think not. But why not?

Anothr situation:

It is a most erroneous concept to hold ...

Can I make it a plural? How can I make it? Without the definite or infinite article?

They are most erroneous concepts to hold ...