ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

Anonymous — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:05:24 GMT

This is the use of the past perfect. You use the past perfect when you have two events that happened in the past and you want to put them together in one sentence. The event that happened firts is spoken in past perfect which means you have to use the auxilary "had + verb in past participle" and the event that happened second is spoken in simple past. The most common connectors are: before, after, when and by the time. The first thing that you have to decide is in which order the events happened. There are many ways to write the sentence that depends on what connector you are using.
e.g. This happended first: all the passangers got out of the plane.
This happened after: the plane exploded.

All the passangers had gotten out of the plane when / before / by the time the plane exploded. or
Before / by the time / when the plane explded, all the passangers had already gotten out of the plane. (already is only for emphasis) or
The plane exploded after the passengers had gotten out of the plane.

Using the past perfect simple (had + verb in past participle)
means that the event that happened first stopped before or long before the second one started.

Using the past perfect continuous or progressive (had + been + verb in gerund ing) means that the first event stopped at the same time the second started.
e.g. I had been driving my new car for only 3 months when my brother crashed it.

I hope this info is helpful.

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

Ant_222 — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:23:38 GMT

"Is this the reason you call it indefinite?"
Yes.

"Does the person I speak to know which books I'm talking about? No. Do I know? Yes."

I don't think this is the question you have to ask. My shelter is a castle. Do I know whereof I speak? Yes. Do I use the indefite article? Yes!

To decide whether a thing is definite I suggest that you ask a question like: do I describe or specify this thing? In the first case you'll have to use the indefinte article, and the definite one in the second case.

"Anton, By the way what's all those underscores? They make your posts difficult to read, IMO."

I just wanted to emphasize words that way... and it didn't work. I would use a bold font if this new forum's editor was't so slow and funny and unstable in Opera...

EDIT: Sorry for the typo above: the example should have been: "Take me by my hand" (as is sung in Diamonds' "The Stroll"...

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

New2grammar — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:49:51 GMT

Ant, I appreciate your attempt to help.

Now I understand the original examples of books. But your examples are kind of confusing to me. Let me try to understand one of your examples.

my other books - plural definite (according to CJ) Does the person I speak to know which books I'm talking about? No. Do I know? Yes.

"Take by my hand" - singular indefinite( accroding to you) Does the person I speak to know which books I'm talking about? No. Do I know? Maybe. Any hand will do I guess. Is this the reason you call it indefinite?

Anton, By the way what's all those underscores? They make your posts difficult to read, IMO.

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

Ant_222 — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:21:49 GMT

New2grammar
My problem with definite and indefinite articles is less than with definite/indefinite pronouns. I think I'm starting to see other and another as indefinite articles, my as definite article and mine as indefinite article.

There's no such corellation, except for "another", which is in fact "an" + "other", so dont' need to think of these words as capable of rendering a noun definite or indefinite on their own.

"Take by my hand" — how can it be definite when we don't no which hand is in question?

"Your English is better than mine" — how can it be indefinite when it's a comparison of the English skills of two people?

... And so on.

New2grammar
I have to say referring to other, another, my, mine as definite/indefinite is something new to me.

We didn't refer to this words alone. It were noun phrases buit therewith that we called definite or indefinite. And since nouns can be (in)definte, that's all right.

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

New2grammar — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:56:37 GMT

My problem with definite and indefinite articles is less than with definite/indefinite pronouns. I think I'm starting to see other and another as indefinite articles, my as definite article and mine as indefinite article.

I have to say referring to other, another, my, mine as definite/indefinite is something new to me.

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

Ant_222 — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:45:01 GMT

New2grammar
The concept of definite and indefinite is killing me. I'm really lost.

Then how come you use articles correctly most of the time? ;)

"The concept of definite/indefinite" is sure definite because it has been identified by specifying the topic.

"New2Grammar has proposed _a_ revolutionary concept of definite/indefinie". Here the "concept" is indefinite, as in "I have bought _a_ new car" or "I have invented _a_ new type of steam engine". Only a description of the concept is specified, which in no way makes it definite because there may exist other concepts of definite/indefinite, as well as other types of steam engines. Hence the term "descriptive".

"The concept of the steam engine is killing me" — here is implied the general principle of the operation of the steam engine. Of course, the principle is unique and therefore the concept of it is definite. By adding "of the steam engine" we uniquely identify what we speak of... We have "restricted" a multitude of concepts to only one element (the concept of the steam engine), whence the term "restrictive".

Anton

P.S.: Sorry is this only increased your confusion...

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

New2grammar — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:34:45 GMT

The concept of definite and indefinite is killing me. I'm really lost.

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

Ant_222 — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:25:46 GMT

It can _also_ be indefinite. Here's a bad yet working example:

"These are my books. The books on the shelf are my other books" -- it is equal to "the books on the shelf are mine _too_". "Being mine" is a _descriptive_ property, and so is "my other books".

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

New2grammar — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 08:51:10 GMT

I thought when we speak of definite or indefinite, we talk about the definite and indefinite articles, the, an,a

my other book is definite

another book of mine is indefinite

I can stretch definition of definite-indefinite to cover the above. Anotehr book of mine can be any book of all the books that I own whereas my other book is specific in teh sense that it's the one of a total of two books that I own that I haven't mentioned.

other books of mine is indefinite??? The remaining books that I own should be definite/specific. I have mentioned one book, the rest of my book collection is what this phrase refers to. It's specific (definite)

Sorry that I'm asking such a basic grammar rule. Please help

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

CalifJim — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 01:22:06 GMT

New2grammar
It's weird that the first pair is not acceptable whereas the second pair is fine.
my other book = ?the other book of mine
my other books = other books of mine

The first is definite; the second indefinite. Ant has the basic idea. See his post.

Let me repeat what I wrote. Note that your second equality is not something I claimed as an equality.

my other book = *my the other book = ?the other book of mine >>> Singluar Definite.
*my another book = *my an other book = another book of mine >>> Singular Indefinite.
my other books = *my the other books = ?the other books of mine >>> Plural Definite.
*my some other books = some other books of mine = other books of mine >>> Plural Indefinite.

So the typical forms are:

Definite -- Singular / Plural: my other book; my other books (The reference is to a particular book or set of books.)

Indefinite -- Singular / Plural: another book of mine; other books of mine (The reference is to an unspecified book or set of books.)

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

Ant_222 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 22:16:15 GMT

«It's weird that the first pair is not acceptable whereas the second pair is fine»

It's not the pair but the second pharese in it — "The other book of mine".

I believe the gist is in the definite article. "A book of mine" is OK, while "The book of mine" is not.

Double posessive works well only with indefinite nouns for some reason... Maybe because it's percevied mainly as descriptive (nor restrictive).

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

New2grammar — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:10:24 GMT

Sorry CJ. I got myself confused. Look at the following. It's weird that the first pair is not acceptable whereas the second pair is fine.

my other book = ?the other book of mine

my other books = other books of mine

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

CalifJim — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:00:02 GMT

??? What about 'my other books'? It's fine. I don't understand the question.

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

New2grammar — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:36:46 GMT

That's interesting. How about 'my other books'?

Re: When the teacher (had) arrived, they stopped talking.

CalifJim — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:27:20 GMT

my other book applies to the case where you have only two books. You are right about that.

Underlined forms are the most usual. Asterisked forms are ungrammatical.

my other book = *my the other book = ?the other book of mine

*my another book = *my an other book = another book of mine

my other books = *my the other books = ?the other books of mine

*my some other books = some other books of mine = other books of mine