ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: what

CalifJim — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:24:02 GMT

I see. Well, it would have to be a case like this:

I asked exactly what I wanted to, regardless of any embarrassment it might cause to others.

Here nothing identifies what was actually asked. The hanging to makes the statement loop back on itself by implying wanted to ask. Hence, that which.

Similarly, I asked what everyone feared I would.

And here's a nice ambiguous one:

I asked what was on the mind of everyone present at the meeting.

Did I ask those questions that everyone else also wanted to ask? (that which)

Or did I ask each person his opinion, saying to each, in effect, "What's on your mind?" (interrogative)

Re: what

Taka — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:05:18 GMT

Sorry, it wasn't clear.

I'm wondering if there is a case where, for example, the interpretation of 'S ask what... ' could be either 'S ask what:interrogative...' or S ask that/which...'

Re: what

CalifJim — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:38:32 GMT

It's unclear what you want exceptions to.

It would be much easier to come up with additions.

ask, inquire, wonder, guess, know, learn, find out, decide, and any cases with the infinitive after the wh- word are typically the interrogative case. Also in this category are many negative expressions of not knowing: I can't imagine, I have no idea, ...

We learned how to read Japanese.

Do you have any idea what she said?

I can guess very easily who was there.

Have you found out who signed the document?

Jane asked what to do.

I wonder if Ken is going to be there.

I don't know whether to go or to stay.

No one could decide what to do.

_____

In my opinion, there are many ambiguous cases.

Re: what

Taka — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:40:27 GMT

CalifJim
it is sometimes hopeless to try to disentangle the meanings with mathematical precision.
I don't think there's any problem if you want to say that both of these have interrogative aspects.
CJ

So it's not that the last one is clearly #2. OK.

Jim, some of my books say if the verb in 'SV+what' is 'ask', 'inquire', or 'wonder', the 'what' is an interrogative word whereas if it's 'eat', 'give', 'believe' or 'do', it's 'that which.' Would you come up with any exceptions?

Re: what

CalifJim — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:22:24 GMT

I think of the first one as interrogative, but not the second. I have heard that second underlined clause called "a fused relative construction".

Many of these grammatical terms, like 'interrogative', are not as tightly defined as the terms used in mathematics, so it is sometimes hopeless to try to disentangle the meanings with mathematical precision.

I don't think there's any problem if you want to say that both of these have interrogative aspects.

Re: what

Taka — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:14:02 GMT

Hmm...These 'what's are interrogative, aren't they?

e.g:

A: What did you learn there?

B: Well, it's going to be a bit complicated.

A: That's OK. Your own description of what you learned. We are all here to enjoy your story that you've brought back.

Re: what

CalifJim — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 02:23:49 GMT

This one leans much more toward that which.

I work this out by substituting other indirect questions like whether It is permitted. If a large range of indirect questions doesn't work, I suspect that only that which is the correct interpretation.

a description of whether it is permitted doesn't work for my ear, so I think that which is probably a better characterization in that case.

learn whether it is permitted does work for me, as well as learn that which is permitted, so there I see a greater possibility for ambiguity.

The verbs of knowing, finding out, and learning tend to be followed by indirect questions, so when these are followed by what, where, whether, how, etc., I am suspicious that an indirect question is a possible interpretation, along with the that which interpretation, thereby creating the ambiguity you called attention to in your original post.

Re: what

Taka — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 02:08:23 GMT

Great! Then you find the same ambiguity here?

They now understand a verbal desciription of what they are learning.

Re: what

CalifJim — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 01:58:55 GMT

(3)

what

Taka — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 01:53:31 GMT

You need to learn what is normal and expected in our community.

About 'what' in red, is it:

(1)an interrogative word

(2)that which/the thing which

(3)ambiguous

?