ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: pretty much perfect

26TMNTJG2PG — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:41:45 GMT

RayH
Quite right. But, lest we lose track of the original question, why is it OK to say "more perfect", "nearly perfect", "almost perfect", and yes "pretty much perfect" but not "pretty perfect"?

If I engage myself in academic writing, I would avoid both types of usages, and if I must use either, I'll use it with a qualification noting the existence of the other.

Re: pretty much perfect

Yoong Liat — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:14:07 GMT

New2grammar
Huevos
hence something is either perfect or it is not.

If it's either yes or no, why is pretty much perfect OK? It's really confusing to me

Purists point out that anything that is perfect, in the sense 'flawless, complete in all respects', must be absolutely so, and that it is therefore incorrect to use qualifying words such as more, most, so, and very.

It is quite permissible, however, to speak of one thing as being more nearly perfect than another.

(The Right Word at the Right Time)

Re: pretty much perfect

Marius Hancu — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:02:12 GMT

>In fact, I was told in grade school that the "more perfect union" spoken of in the Constitution should really have been a "more nearly perfect union".

You had great teachers, CJ.

Re: pretty much perfect

RayH — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:51:46 GMT

A very clear explanation CJ. Thanks.

Re: pretty much perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 09:01:32 GMT

CJ, nothing is impossible to you . It's a really amazing answer! Thanks.

Re: pretty much perfect

CalifJim — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:45:52 GMT

If you take the point of view that perfect is an 'absolute' (non-gradable) adjective, an adjective of which there can be no degrees -- a point of view being disputed in this thread, but for the sake of argument, let's say we take this viewpoint -- then more perfect is impossible because it expresses a degree of perfection, a quality which, by the original supposition, does not occur in degrees. Given that it is absolute, it is as pointless to talk about more or less perfection as to talk about more or less nothingness, or -- to pick a more famous example -- to talk about some pigs being more equal than others. more perfect, rather perfect, pretty perfect, a little perfect, fairly perfect, very perfect, and somewhat perfect are all "banned" within this viewpoint because all express degrees of perfection.

Nevertheless, it is not contradictory, still remaining within the same point of view, to speak of conditions which are closer to or farther from the absolute (non-gradable) state of perfection. This is not at all the same as talking about different degrees of perfection. In this group we have nearly perfect, almost perfect, far from perfect, very nearly perfect, just about perfect, and pretty much perfect.

pretty is close in meaning to fairly. It belongs in the first ("banned") group because it expresses a degree of a (gradable) quality: pretty good, pretty small, pretty old, pretty shabby

pretty much is close in meaning to just about or almost. It has to be thought of as a two-word idiom not exactly derivable from the meanings of the two words that compose it. It belongs in the second group because it expresses a distance from an (absolute) quality: pretty much finished, pretty much empty, pretty much intact, pretty much equal

______________

If you take the point of view, on the other hand, that perfect is not an absolute adjective (i.e., is a gradable adjective), then all the adverbs of degree can apply: fairly perfect, very perfect, less perfect, etc. I've never, personally, taken this point of view. In fact, I was told in grade school that the "more perfect union" spoken of in the Constitution should really have been a "more nearly perfect union". Apparently that lesson has stuck with me.

Yet common sense dictates that some expressions which take perfect to be gradable have become standard idioms in English and therefore must be accepted. But I don't think I am alone in saying that pretty perfect is not one of them.

Re: pretty much perfect

RayH — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 04:35:13 GMT

Quite right. But, lest we lose track of the original question, why is it OK to say "more perfect", "nearly perfect", "almost perfect", and yes "pretty much perfect" but not "pretty perfect"?

Re: pretty much perfect

26TMNTJG2PG — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 04:25:55 GMT

I append below 2 usage notes from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perfect) for perusal of those interested:-

—Usage note A few usage guides still object to the use of comparison words such as more, most, nearly, almost, and rather with perfect on the grounds that perfect describes an absolute, yes-or-no condition that cannot logically be said to exist in varying degrees. The English language has never agreed to this limitation. Since its earliest use in the 13th century, perfect has, like almost all adjectives, been compared, first in the now obsolete forms perfecter and perfectest, and more recently with more, most, and similar comparison words: the most perfect arrangement of color and line imaginable. Perfect is compared in most of its general senses in all varieties of speech and writing. After all, one of the objectives of the writers of the U.S. Constitution was "to form a more perfect union." See also complete, unique.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Usage Note: Some people maintain that perfect is an absolute term like chief and prime, and therefore cannot be modified by more, quite, relatively, and other qualifiers of degree. But the qualification of perfect has many reputable precedents (most notably in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution in the phrase "in order to form a more perfect Union"). By the same token, perfect often means "ideal for the purposes," as in There could be no more perfect spot for the picnic, where modification by degree makes perfect sense. See Usage Notes at absolute, equal, unique.

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Re: pretty much perfect

RayH — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 04:02:17 GMT

Huevos
but to be perfect is a state, hence something is either perfect or it is not.

Not to be contentious, but this isn't exactly true. I can say "nearly perfect", "almost perfect", etc.

Here is a quote from answers.com
Some people maintain that perfect is an absolute term like chief and prime, and therefore cannot be modified by more, quite, relatively, and other qualifiers of degree. But the qualification of perfect has many reputable precedents (most notably in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution in the phrase “in order to form a more perfect Union”). By the same token, perfect often means “ideal for the purposes,” as in There could be no more perfect spot for the picnic, where modification by degree makes perfect sense.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=perfect&gwp=13

I'm afraid N2G's question (and now mine) has not yet been answered.

Re: pretty much perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 03:58:04 GMT

Huevos
hence something is either perfect or it is not.

If it's either yes or no, why is pretty much perfect OK? It's really confusing to me

Re: pretty much perfect

Huevos — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 03:45:42 GMT

N2G, if you say "pretty perfect" the adverb pretty is modifying the adjective perfect, but to be perfect is a state, hence something is either perfect or it is not. Take, for example, the adjective "even". It is the same in this respect. So you cannot say "the number is pretty even" or "almost even" because a number is either even or it is not.

Re: pretty much perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 03:31:34 GMT

Huevos
Some adjectives can be used for comparison while others cannot

I don't quite understand why comparison has anything to do with my post. Did I make comparisons in this thread without my own knowledge? Are you saying pretty is a comparison tool?

Re: pretty much perfect

Huevos — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 03:27:19 GMT

New2grammar
Why is pretty perfect not natural while pretty good and pretty well are OK?

Some adjectives can be used for comparison while others cannot. Perfect is one of the ones that cannot and personally I would avoid anything that tries to shoehorn it into this type of use.

Re: pretty much perfect

RayH — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 03:16:57 GMT

New2grammar
Why is pretty perfect not natural while pretty good and pretty well are OK?

Well, if one of the grammar experts has a better answer I look forward to it. My guess is that it's just one of the vagaries of the English language.

Re: pretty much perfect

New2grammar — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 03:02:12 GMT

Why is pretty perfect not natural while pretty good and pretty well are OK?