ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: improvised

New2grammar — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:54:56 GMT

Thanks again, Avangi and GG.

Re: improvised

Avangi — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:11:59 GMT

Grammar Geek
with the full intention of dismantling it afterwards.

Thanks, GG. I hadn't picked up on that aspect of it. That's important.

- A.

Re: improvised

Grammar Geek — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:10:55 GMT

Ad hoc means created for a specific purpose, and with the full intention of dismantling it afterwards.

Makeshift/improvised means it was put together using what was available.

I can stand on the back of a pick-up truck, and it's a makeshift or improvides stage.

Re: improvised

New2grammar — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:02:20 GMT

I think I'm starting to see the difference now.

Re: improvised

Avangi — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:53:17 GMT

New2grammar
I feel you're describing the meaning of adhoc.

I don't think so. You could come upon a fence in a pasture and have no idea of it's purpose or the circumstances under which it was built, or how long it's been standing. Yet, knowing something about fences, you're able to judge that it was improvised.*****

Since I had previously opened the door to looking at the circumstances of why something may be improvised, I thought it should be clarified (that is, perhaps not always on the cheap).

Actually, "makeshift" and "improvised" speak more to the nature of the thing than to the circumstances under which it was created, even though the words themselves reference it's illegitimacy.

If I understand "ad hoc," it could apply to the most elegant, expensive, and carefully conceived temporary stage for a political debate.

On the other hand, you could argue that "ad hoc" applies to the stage as representative of the whole picture - both the special purpose, and the special circumstances under which it had to be improvised.

I hope someone more comfortable with the use of "ad hoc" can say if it applies here.

***** Note that we can say "was improvised" emphasizing the process, or "is improvised" emphasizing the quality.

Re: improvised

New2grammar — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:33:51 GMT

The more I read your explanation, the more I feel you're describing the meaning of adhoc. Is that true?

Re: improvised

Avangi — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:18:06 GMT

One last remark: "Makeshift" and "improvised" mean a non-standard solution using what's immediately available, but the reason for this may not always be a lack of funds or expertise.

There could be combinations of reasons. Perhaps the correct materials are available, but no one knows how to put them together. Perhaps the experts are on hand but important components are missing. It's also possible that the available substitute materials could cost more than the proper ones would have.

And these installations aren't always temporary. An engineer friend used to joke that the only thing that's permanent in a bakery is the temporary wiring. (That's ironic.)

Re: improvised

New2grammar — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:20:18 GMT

Avangi
done on the cheap

That's the key. Thanks, Avangi.

Re: improvised

Avangi — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:12:08 GMT

I would say, no. Both "makeshift" and "improvised" suggest the project was done on the cheap, with very little advance planning. A temporary stage for a presidential candidate would be professionally engineered and constructed, and probably of the best materials.

The two adjectives in question imply that it was put together from whatever could be found lying around.

They don't necessarily imply the job was done by amateurs. Perhaps the need was urgent and there was no time to secure proper materials.

Best wishes, - A.

Re: improvised

New2grammar — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:50:49 GMT

So, it would be perfectly fine to describe a stage that's assembled outdoor for a public speech like one of those for presidential candidates use as makeshift stage, right?

Re: improvised

Philip — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:47:53 GMT

I think they both mean the same. The indication is that it was quickly put up, perhaps not for permanent use.

improvised

New2grammar — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:19:23 GMT

Is there any difference between an improvised fence and a makeshift fence?
Thanks.