ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

Marius Hancu — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:55:33 GMT

Copying myself from another thread:

Iamnewbie
Isn't it a Subjunctive Mood, is it?

Yes, you can look at it that way and that's a nice justification. CJ's example:

Mozart died before he had completed the Requiem Mass.

can be read as:

Mozart died before THE HYPOTHETICAL ACTION IN WHICH he would have completed the Requiem Mass.

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

CalifJim — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:08:45 GMT

New2grammar
She arrived before her mother had reached her hotel?

Fine.

= Her mother had not yet reached her hotel when she arrived.

The expected (intended) order is: Her mother arrives at the hotel, and then she arrives.

The actual order is: She arrives at the hotel, but her mother is not there; her mother has not yet arrived.

Or, backshifting: She arrived at the hotel, but her mother was not there; her mother had not yet arrived.

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

CalifJim — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:53:51 GMT

Peaceblinkfriend
from what I have learned about Past Perfect, it seems to me that it is ungrammatical that 'had even begun' is in Past Perfect tense.

No. It's grammatically correct to use the past perfect tense when the before clause indicates that an event has not yet happened at the time of the main clause, but suggesting that perhaps the event was going to happen. This construction can (correctly) give the impression that events occurred in the reverse order from what was expected, customary, or desirable. (In the case at hand, the writer expected that the dinner would begin first and the wine drinking would take place later.)

She belted down the wine before the dinner had begun

= The dinner had not yet begun [when / at the time] she belted down the wine.

See Re: past perfect in dependent clause

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

New2grammar — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:56:45 GMT

Is my example correct? in case you didn't notice my previous post.

She arrived before her mother had reached her hotel?

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

Marius Hancu — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:53:46 GMT

yes, but this is a special case

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

Peaceblinkfriend — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:51:09 GMT

Don't you use the past perfect tense to talk about actions that occur before another past actions?

Thanks

PBF

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

Marius Hancu — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:50:45 GMT

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Salute the Sappers - Page 188

by Neil D. Orpen, Henry James Martin - World War, 1939-1945 - 1982

By 26 July, before work had even begun on the high Esino bridge, Maj. Browne was continuing his reconnaissance onward to Castel ...

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Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

New2grammar — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:50:40 GMT

So I got it right in my example?

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

Marius Hancu — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:46:09 GMT

She drank before dinner had (even) begun.

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

New2grammar — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:43:58 GMT

MH, could you highlight the structure of this construction so I know what to memorize?

My example:

She arrived before her mother had reached her hotel?

Re: Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

Marius Hancu — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:38:40 GMT

No, it's correct.

Ungrammatical? "She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun."

Peaceblinkfriend — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:29:27 GMT

She belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner had even begun.

This is an example sentence provided for the entry on the 'belt down' in a Chamber's guidebook on phrasal verbs. And from what I have learned about Past Perfect, it seems to me that it is ungrammatical that 'had even begun' is in Past Perfect tense. I reckon it should be 'She had belted most of a bottle of wine down before dinner even began' instead. I know it is probably presumptuous to say this, but anyhow, I will be virtually over the moon if I got this right.

Thanks

PBF