ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Until

CalifJim — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:02:24 GMT

New2grammar
Hello, natives. We need some aid here

Present:

until it stops or until it has stopped are used almost indifferently.

Past:

until it stopped or until it had stopped are used almost indifferently.

In each case the first is more commonly used. The second might be used when the action unfolds over a longer period of time, but not necessarily. Perhaps the simple tense has the tendency to direct our attention over smaller spans of time, and the corresponding perfect tense directs our attention over longer amounts of time. The simple version tends to "zoom in" on time; the perfect version tends to "zoom out".

Let's wait until he arrives on the train, and then we can proceed immediately to the hotel.

Let's wait until he has arrived and settled in for a few days, and then we can make further plans about which sights to see.

But -- reversing simple and perfect tenses in the sentences above does not really change the meaning in any significant way, so the "zoom" theory might not be valid!

Another theory is that the use of the perfect is simply a higher register pattern (more formal).

Re: Until

Liveinjapan — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:11:33 GMT

New2grammar
Sorry, LiJ for making a fuss.

It's really a good discussion, New2. I appreciate your help! Thanks everyone.

Re: Until

New2grammar — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:44:22 GMT

Thanks, Clive. One less worry. Sorry, LiJ for making a fuss.

Re: Until

Clive — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:38:02 GMT

Hi guys,

I had to wait until it had stopped biting.

I had to wait until it stopped biting.

If there's any difference between the two sentences, could you tell me please?
Both of these sound natual to me. I don't feel any real difference when I read them, although I think your discussion about small delays is on the right track.

But, as I said, I think native speakers would just shrug and say 'No difference'.

I think in spoken English you'd usually hear #2, because it's quicker and easier to say.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: Until

New2grammar — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:04:46 GMT

Liveinjapan

I should have said 'until it had stopped..' and 'until I stopped ...' are not much different in terms of a time lag.
If you want to indicate a time lag, I think you could say 'I didn't do that before it stopped biting.'

I see. So, you would use them interchangeably? I mean, the constructions "until...had" and "until ...past tense"? I guess in some contexts, the difference is little but I don't think that's what native speakers do. There's always some difference and sometimes, it determines naturalness. Of course, I could be wrong. I'm still waiting for a native Hello, natives. We need some aid here

Re: Until

Liveinjapan — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:59:07 GMT

Liveinjapan
If the sentence is like 'I didn't do that until it had stopped...,' then it means 'just after it stopped it I did that,' where there may be no time lag, IMO.

Hi New2

I should have said 'until it had stopped..' and 'until I stopped ...' are not much different in terms of a time lag.
If you want to indicate a time lag, I think you could say 'I didn't do that before it stopped biting.'

Of course, you might want to hear from natives!

Re: Until

New2grammar — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:21:01 GMT

Liveinjapan
If the sentence is like 'I didn't do that until it had stopped...,' then it means 'just after it stopped it I did that,' where there may be no time lag, IMO.

I beg to differ. To indicate there's probably no delay, you would need to say "I didn't do that until it stopped". Using 'had' makes the possibility of a delay higher.

But I could be wrong, which is why I posted that question. I would like to hear from a native.

Re: Until

Liveinjapan — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:41:14 GMT

New2grammar
until it had sounds like until after it ..., IMO. Waht do you think?

What do you mean does 'until after' imply here, New2?

I think "until after" might imply a time lag between biting and the next action(,or maybe not). But I think the past perfect, to the contrary, indicates 'just after it stopped biting', IMO.
If the sentence is like 'I didn't do that until it had stopped...,' then it means 'just after it stopped it I did that,' where there may be no time lag, IMO.

Re: Until

Liveinjapan — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:56:16 GMT

Thanks everyone!

I get how the past perfect works here.

Re: Until

New2grammar — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:13:49 GMT

until it had sounds like until after it ..., IMO. Waht do you think?

Re: Until

Marius Hancu — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:07:30 GMT

I had to wait until it had stopped biting. [you could say that in this case the waiting takes more time, to make sure that ...

I had to wait until it stopped biting.

Re: Until

Gencebay90 — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:34:25 GMT

As far as I know, There is not so big a difference, but:

#1 emphasizes the completion of the action because of the past perfect there. I mean the writer imples that" only after it had stopped bitng did s/he get out of it"

Until

Liveinjapan — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:16:48 GMT

I had to wait until it had stopped biting.

I had to wait until it stopped biting.

If there's any difference between the two sentences, could you tell me please?