http://www.englishforums.com/English/EslGeneralEnglishGrammar-Questions/Forum12.htmAsk your questions on grammar and get your sentence checked. We answer lots of different types of general English grammar questions here.enXMOD (Build: 3598.39794)http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/3/gkgcl/Post.htm#552735Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552735CalifJim0http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/3/gkgcl/Post.htm#552735http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552735.xmlwill be too busy thinking " Why did he not say "I HAD left my wallet"? Because ... Sad but true -- but an amusing example nonetheless!!! CJhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/3/gkgcl/Post.htm#552712Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552712jazzmaster1http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/3/gkgcl/Post.htm#552712http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552712.xmlProbably not. There may be a better way to finesse this with a different wording. Yes, but from the viewpoint of the authors and the teacher, this may be considered a harmless "white lie". Out of curiosity, does the book actually use the words, "serious grammatical error"? Or is that your impressionistic paraphrase? Thanks CJ " Serious grammatical error " is my paraphrase. But when and if ESL students start to expressly state "this IS an exceptional usage", I suppose that means "these is a set rule on this and no one can break that in any shape or form". " the simplification of the grammar at the beginning makes it much easier for them to navigate the language with confidence in...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552642Fri, 08 May 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552642CalifJim2http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552642http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552642.xmlMy question is whether this should be called a "grammatical rule" Probably not. There may be a better way to finesse this with a different wording. "... a serious grammatical error". In which case, they are dead wrong. Yes, but from the viewpoint of the authors and the teacher, this may be considered a harmless "white lie". In every discipline there are basic concepts and advanced concepts, and it's impossible to present everything at once. (The principles of chemistry work just fine if we imagine all the electron shells as spherical, even though this is "dead wrong". Only advanced chemistry students need learn the "true shapes" of the electron shells.) If the students eventually...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552483Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552483jazzmaster3http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552483http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552483.xmlYou'll probably notice that, statistically, existential there usually goes with an indefinite expression, and locative there usually goes with a definite expression. Your three examples that you wanted to call exceptional are actually members of class 4 above, and are not among the patterns the ESL text is cautioning against. (I don't think so anyway.) Case 2 is the focus of the prohibition. And for beginners, it might not be a bad idea to keep away from those, since they are, as I pointed out above, more like an idiomatic way of asking someone to take something into consideration. CJ Thanks, CJ Well organized and explained. Thanks. "... are not among the patterns the ESL text is cautioning against." ... I think...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552479Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552479jazzmaster4http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552479http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552479.xmlHere's an example I think is perfectly ok: What's in your garage? - Oh, nothing. There's an old car... and there's the old bike you sold me, remember? Hi, Kooyeen. In your garage example, if you're sitting in your living room having a beer when this conversation takes place, It's all existential. These things exist " The bike is a perfectly acceptable exception to Jazz's rule. Thanks Avangi: I am more than sure that Kooyeen described a conversation which took place outside the garage without being actually being there. At least that was how I understood it. Jhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552356Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552356CalifJim5http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552356http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552356.xmlA few grammar books carried by ESL students suggest that "there is" only takes indefinite articles Good advice for beginners using "existential there ". You've got four combinations to disentangle here. "existential there " means there exists -- such-and-such "has existence". "locative there " means in that location -- at that place . The two meanings are different. And each can be used with either an indefinite or a definite expression. 1. Existential there with an indefinite: There's a book on the table. (A book is to be found -- has existence -- on the table.) 2. Existential there with a definite: For sinners, there's hell. | For help with your homework, there's...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552350Fri, 08 May 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552350Avangi6http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552350http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552350.xml[I would say THERE can indicate "existence" (as in "There's a spider, eww!"), or can indicate location (as in "It's over there" or "There it is - There's my wallet", where "there" would be stressed). Here's an example I think is perfectly ok: What's in your garage? - Oh, nothing. There's an old car... and there's the old bike you sold me, remember? Hi, Kooyeen. I think you have Mr.M's adverbial usage correctly, but in my opinion your existential examples are mixed. Maybe not. Perhaps they're just open to interpretation. "There's a spider, eww!" is clearly adverbial . "There's a spider in my sock!" would be existential . In...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552310Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552310jazzmaster7http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552310http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552310.xmlReally? ,,, Reeeeally. I just wanted to give your cat a big hand because she sits so nicely for the camera ... clap clap clap ... (Blue Ball is on 322 - it depend where you were coming from whether you'd drive through it.) ,,, You can get to Zzyzx Road on the I-15 on your way from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. http://www.worldofstock.com/closeups/DEC1395.php ,,, Or if you would like to take a different route, Truth or Consequences is on the I-25. http://www.ci.truth-or-consequences.nm.us/ Thanks, GG.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552297Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552297Grammar Geek8http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552297http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552297.xmlWhat a crap. Really? (Blue Ball is on 322 - it depend where you were coming from whether you'd drive through it.)http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552267Fri, 08 May 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552267jazzmaster9http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552267http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552267.xmlI used to learn from those books and listen to teachers who teach those "rules" too, until I literally got mad and decided I'd had enough of that cr... garbage. Thanks Kooyeen. (Queen! I just figured that out!) I dig your garage example a lot. Well put and I would not change one single word in it, including your collection of bodies. There it is, there are no other rules concerning the use of "there", period. So I suppose you were the one of those victims who were stuffed with "Hardcore English Grammar", huh? I feel you. Those who "really overgeneralize" MUST put everything into "rules", no exception. Otherwise those sentences do not exist. As results, they came up with so many...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552245Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552245jazzmaster10http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/2/gkgcl/Post.htm#552245http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552245.xml(FYI, the town is Blue Ball, in the singular. I drive through it when I go to Hershey Park. What we find more amusing is that Paradise is quite close to Intercourse, which is just down Rt. 340 from Bird-in-Hand. Those Amish!) jazzmaster - just say "what crap" not "what a crap." Lastly, maybe it would help if you thought about "There is your brother" or "There's that purse I've been wanting to buy" as "Hey look! Over there" to reinforce the "where?" aspect of that form of "there." Thanks for dropping by again, Grammar Geek. Hmm, Blue Ball ... I did not notice that when I went to Hershey Park. just say "what crap" not "what a crap." ......http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552240Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552240Kooyeen11http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552240http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552240.xmlI feel very sorry for those who are being taught with those books. I used to learn from those books and listen to teachers who teach those "rules" too, until I literally got mad and decided I'd had enough of that cr... garbage. Now I only try to learn from native speakers. The truth is some books and teachers really overgeneralize, and turn fact that are usually true for contextual reasons into inaccurate "rules" for ESL learners, turning "sometimes" into "always" or "never". Or even worse, teaching rules that don't reflect the actual modern usage of English. But that's another story. I would say THERE can indicate "existence" (as in "There's a spider,...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552235Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552235Grammar Geek12http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552235http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552235.xml(FYI, the town is Blue Ball, in the singular. I drive through it when I go to Hershey Park. What we find more amusing is that Paradise is quite close to Intercourse, which is just down Rt. 340 from Bird-in-Hand. Those Amish!) jazzmaster - just say "what crap" not "what a crap." Lastly, maybe it would help if you thought about "There is your brother" or "There's that purse I've been wanting to buy" as "Hey look! Over there" to reinforce the "where?" aspect of that form of "there."http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552221Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552221jazzmaster13http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552221http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552221.xmlA few grammar books carried by ESL students suggest that "there is" only takes indefinite articles such as "a/an", as in "There is an apple". Anything else, such as "the, my, our, his", is not supposed to come after "there is". My brief opinion: those are the kinds of books you should avoid reading. Unfortunately, there's a lot of 'em. Thanks for coming by, Kooyeen. "those are the kinds of books you should avoid reading" ... you know what? I could not agree with you more. You got that right. What a crap. Those books are beginning to evolve around themselves and started making up their own rules. I feel very sorry for those who are being taught with those books....http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552217Sun, 08 Mar 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552217jazzmaster14http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552217http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552217.xmlMy advice is that there are two senses of "there is," and the rule applies to only one of them. (I'm not an expert on what ESL students carry, although I'm working on it.) The first one means something like, "This thing happens to exist." "There is a town in Pennsylvania called 'Blue Balls.' " "There is only one thing my father refused to eat." The second one means something like, "Look! Do you see what I see?" "There's the snake I've been trying to tell you about." "There's my mother. I hope she brought the money!" While both senses seek to call our attention to something, the second one is demonstrative, while the first merely asserts...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552207Sun, 08 Mar 2009 09:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552207Kooyeen15http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552207http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552207.xmlA few grammar books carried by ESL students suggest that "there is" only takes indefinite articles such as "a/an", as in "There is an apple". Anything else, such as "the, my, our, his", is not supposed to come after "there is". My brief opinion: those are the kinds of books you should avoid reading. Unfortunately, there's a lot of 'em.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552137Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552137jazzmaster16http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552137http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552137.xml. It is generally true for existential 'there'-- where 'there' carries no meaning: There's a delivery man here. The counter-examples you offer are for the adverbial 'there', a location: There's my car over on that side of the street. However, I don't think the rule is absolute at all: Who can help me with my homework?-- Well, there's your brother. . Thanks Mister Micawber: I am surprised to know 'it is generally true". There's a delivery man here. >> I am not challenging you or anything but what if I say "There is the delivery man (who always comes in a brown UPS truck at the same time everyday)"? In this case "the" implies that we sort of know the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552093Fri, 08 May 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552093Avangi17http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552093http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552093.xmlMy advice is that there are two senses of "there is," and the rule applies to only one of them. (I'm not an expert on what ESL students carry, although I'm working on it.) The first one means something like, "This thing happens to exist." "There is a town in Pennsylvania called 'Blue Balls.' " "There is only one thing my father refused to eat." The second one means something like, "Look! Do you see what I see?" "There's the snake I've been trying to tell you about." "There's my mother. I hope she brought the money!" While both senses seek to call our attention to something, the second one is demonstrative, while the first merely asserts...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552091Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552091Mister Micawber18http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htm#552091http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552091.xml. It is generally true for existential 'there'-- where 'there' carries no meaning: There's a delivery man here. The counter-examples you offer are for the adverbial 'there', a location: There's my car over on that side of the street. However, I don't think the rule is absolute at all: Who can help me with my homework?-- Well, there's your brother. .http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htmFri, 08 May 2009 08:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:552035jazzmaster19http://www.englishforums.com/English/IsExceptional/gkgcl/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-552035.xmlI need your opinion on "there": A few grammar books carried by ESL students suggest that "there is" only takes indefinite articles such as "a/an", as in "There is an apple". Anything else, such as "the, my, our, his", is not supposed to come after "there is". Therefore: There is the book I was looking for. There is his mother. There is my car. ... these are all "exceptional uses" according to what they say. I have never heard of this rule/restriction on "there is" and it completely throws me off. I see a lot of sentences on the internet which simply use "the , my, our" after "there is", and cannot find any articles or footnotes on this...