ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

CalifJim — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 02:24:45 GMT

jazzmaster
will be too busy thinking "Why did he not say "I HAD left my wallet"? Because ...

Sad but true -- but an amusing example nonetheless!!!

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

jazzmaster — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:27:58 GMT

CalifJim

Probably not. There may be a better way to finesse this with a different wording.
Yes, but from the viewpoint of the authors and the teacher, this may be considered a harmless "white lie".
Out of curiosity, does the book actually use the words, "serious grammatical error"? Or is that your impressionistic paraphrase?

Thanks CJ

"Serious grammatical error" is my paraphrase. But when and if ESL students start to expressly state "this IS an exceptional usage", I suppose that means "these is a set rule on this and no one can break that in any shape or form".

"the simplification of the grammar at the beginning makes it much easier for them to navigate the language with confidence in the beginning stages" ... I fully concur with your view here. This indeed is the ideal way of teaching something to someone, I would say. However, the reality is that they will soon start feeding what a SVOC is, along with modifier/qualifier, the difference between a relative pronoun and adverb and all that good stuff to students who even cannot pronounce the word "English" correctly yet. I have an impression that they do present "grammatically acceptable" sentence structures, rock-solid rules and what not all at once. It is not a fun way to learn a foreign language. That is why some students grow not to like the subject after short while.

Let's say you are in a store with a hardcore grammatical ESL student, and you say:
*&@!#% !! I just realized I left my wallet home!!
... in stead of saying "It's all right, CJ, here, take $100. You can pay me back tomorrow.", (granting that he/she understood what you said), the ESL student will be too busy thinking "Why did he not say "I HAD left my wallet"? Because he is describing an event that happened obviously prior to the moment "he realized", it should be the past perfect tense, thus "I HAD left". It could be an exceptional use of the "realize ... that ...." structure but I am not sure. Or should I just point out his grammatical mistake?" ... this is the mentality of students who are being taught by those hardcore grammar books, and I am not exaggertating even a bit.

Thanks.

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

CalifJim — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:16:14 GMT

jazzmaster
My question is whether this should be called a "grammatical rule"

Probably not. There may be a better way to finesse this with a different wording.

jazzmaster
"... a serious grammatical error". In which case, they are dead wrong.

Yes, but from the viewpoint of the authors and the teacher, this may be considered a harmless "white lie". In every discipline there are basic concepts and advanced concepts, and it's impossible to present everything at once. (The principles of chemistry work just fine if we imagine all the electron shells as spherical, even though this is "dead wrong". Only advanced chemistry students need learn the "true shapes" of the electron shells.) If the students eventually learn the finer points of grammar, it's a small price to pay that they have a small misconception of grammar in their first attempts, because the simplification of the grammar at the beginning makes it much easier for them to navigate the language with confidence in the beginning stages.

Out of curiosity, does the book actually use the words, "serious grammatical error"? Or is that your impressionistic paraphrase?

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

jazzmaster — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:28:47 GMT

CalifJim
You'll probably notice that, statistically, existential there usually goes with an indefinite expression, and locative there usually goes with a definite expression. Your three examples that you wanted to call exceptional are actually members of class 4 above, and are not among the patterns the ESL text is cautioning against. (I don't think so anyway.) Case 2 is the focus of the prohibition. And for beginners, it might not be a bad idea to keep away from those, since they are, as I pointed out above, more like an idiomatic way of asking someone to take something into consideration.
CJ

Thanks, CJ

Well organized and explained. Thanks.

"... are not among the patterns the ESL text is cautioning against." ... I think you got that right.
I, however, have an impression that ESL hardcore grammar books declare that "in case of existential use, it is a grammatical rule not to say "there is the ..."". My question is whether this should be called a "grammatical rule" and sentences such as "there is the bike you sold me" be classified as "exceptional use". I think otherwise and what it boils down to is "in reality "existential there usually tends to go with an indefinite expression". You, however, are welcome to say 'there is the ..." in existential sense, in situations where and when appropriate". I am afraid that those ESL books would have translated this into like "no, saying "there is the ..." in existential sense is a serious grammatical error". In which case, they are dead wrong.

Thanks.

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

jazzmaster — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:04:55 GMT

Avangi
Kooyeen

Here's an example I think is perfectly ok:
What's in your garage? - Oh, nothing. There's an old car... and there's the old bike you sold me, remember?
Hi, Kooyeen.

In your garage example, if you're sitting in your living room having a beer when this conversation takes place, It's all existential. These things exist [in your garage by virtue of previous context.] "The bike is a perfectly acceptable exception to Jazz's rule.

Thanks Avangi:
I am more than sure that Kooyeen described a conversation which took place outside the garage without being actually being there. At least that was how I understood it.

J

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

CalifJim — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 01:28:22 GMT

jazzmaster
A few grammar books carried by ESL students suggest that "there is" only takes indefinite articles

Good advice for beginners using "existential there".

You've got four combinations to disentangle here.

"existential there" means there exists -- such-and-such "has existence".

"locative there" means in that location -- at that place.

The two meanings are different. And each can be used with either an indefinite or a definite expression.

1. Existential there with an indefinite: There's a book on the table. (A book is to be found -- has existence -- on the table.)

2. Existential there with a definite: For sinners, there's hell. | For help with your homework, there's your brother. This turn of phrase asks us to take something into consideration. (Consider hell, consider your brother, as an answer to the problem of sinners, of doing homework.) Common with always: If you ever need a favor, there's always good old Charlie.

3. Locative there with an indefinite: I'd like a good mystery for summer reading. -- (pointing to a book on a shelf) There's a good one for you. (In that location is a good one.)

4. Locative there with a definite: There's the postman. He's coming up the walk just now. | Where did I leave the car? -- Oh! There's my car! (In that place the postman is found. | In that location is my car.)

You'll probably notice that, statistically, existential there usually goes with an indefinite expression, and locative there usually goes with a definite expression. Your three examples that you wanted to call exceptional are actually members of class 4 above, and are not among the patterns the ESL text is cautioning against. (I don't think so anyway.) Case 2 is the focus of the prohibition. And for beginners, it might not be a bad idea to keep away from those, since they are, as I pointed out above, more like an idiomatic way of asking someone to take something into consideration.

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

Avangi — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:52:38 GMT

Kooyeen
[I would say THERE can indicate "existence" (as in "There's a spider, eww!"), or can indicate location (as in "It's over there" or "There it is - There's my wallet", where "there" would be stressed).

Here's an example I think is perfectly ok:
What's in your garage? - Oh, nothing. There's an old car... and there's the old bike you sold me, remember?

Hi, Kooyeen. I think you have Mr.M's adverbial usage correctly, but in my opinion your existential examples are mixed. Maybe not. Perhaps they're just open to interpretation.

"There's a spider, eww!" is clearly adverbial. "There's a spider in my sock!" would be existential. In the adverbial usage, it must be the "there" itself (eg. pointing) which tells where, or gives the location. In the "eww!" example there's no reference to the location of the spider other than the "there" itself.

In the other spider example, if you only said the existential "There's a spider," it could be taken either way. You may be pointing to the spider, or physically indicating it in some way, perhaps with a nod of your head or a glance at the location. Then it would be adverbial, indicating where. But absent these indications, you're only saying that a spider exists - perhaps in Timbuk Tu. If you then add information about the location, "There's a spider in my sock," the thought could be expressed as "A spider is in my sock," and the "there" contributes nothing as to location. (It has no meaning, as Mr. M says.)

In your garage example, if you're sitting in your living room having a beer when this conversation takes place, It's all existential. These things exist [in your garage by virtue of previous context.] "The bike is a perfectly acceptable exception to Jazz's rule.

But if you say, "Come on, let me show you," the there's become adverbial. "There's the old bike. Look at it."

Your earlier example, "It's over there" does not fit this discussion. Yes, it's adverbial and indicates location, but it's not an example of "There is . . . (There's my wallet, where there is stressed is a fine adverbial example.)

What do you have to offer me? (reply) Well, there's my love and there's my money. Clearly existential, "my" being an acceptable exception.

- A.

Hi GG. I had forgotten you emigrated to Pennsylvania. I'll watch my P's & Q's.

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

jazzmaster — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:08:03 GMT

Really?
,,, Reeeeally. I just wanted to give your cat a big hand because she sits so nicely for the camera ... clap clap clap ...

(Blue Ball is on 322 - it depend where you were coming from whether you'd drive through it.)

,,, You can get to Zzyzx Road on the I-15 on your way from Los Angeles to Las Vegas.

http://www.worldofstock.com/closeups/DEC1395.php

,,, Or if you would like to take a different route, Truth or Consequences is on the I-25. http://www.ci.truth-or-consequences.nm.us/

Thanks, GG.

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

Grammar Geek — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:49:18 GMT

jazzmaster
What a crap.

Really?

(Blue Ball is on 322 - it depend where you were coming from whether you'd drive through it.)

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

jazzmaster — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:49:29 GMT

Kooyeen

I used to learn from those books and listen to teachers who teach those "rules" too, until I literally got mad and decided I'd had enough of that cr... garbage.

Thanks Kooyeen. (Queen! I just figured that out!)

I dig your garage example a lot. Well put and I would not change one single word in it, including your collection of bodies.
There it is, there are no other rules concerning the use of "there", period.

So I suppose you were the one of those victims who were stuffed with "Hardcore English Grammar", huh? I feel you. Those who "really overgeneralize" MUST put everything into "rules", no exception. Otherwise those sentences do not exist. As results, they came up with so many hardcore grammatical terms which even a rocket scientist with a doctor's degree in brain surgery cannot understand. That is sad but is a reality in the wonderful world of ESL. I do not know where this is going to.

But one thing I am sure is that I love your style

Thanks again.

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

jazzmaster — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:10:50 GMT

Grammar Geek
(FYI, the town is Blue Ball, in the singular. I drive through it when I go to Hershey Park.

What we find more amusing is that Paradise is quite close to Intercourse, which is just down Rt. 340 from Bird-in-Hand. Those Amish!)

jazzmaster - just say "what crap" not "what a crap."

Lastly, maybe it would help if you thought about "There is your brother" or "There's that purse I've been wanting to buy" as "Hey look! Over there" to reinforce the "where?" aspect of that form of "there."

Thanks for dropping by again, Grammar Geek.

Hmm, Blue Ball ... I did not notice that when I went to Hershey Park.
just say "what crap" not "what a crap." ... What are you talking about? I did not say that!

By "There is your brother", I meant what Mr. M said earlier: "However, I don't think the rule is absolute at all: Who can help me with my homework?-- Well, there's your brother."

Thanks again.

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

Kooyeen — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:43:49 GMT

jazzmaster
I feel very sorry for those who are being taught with those books.

I used to learn from those books and listen to teachers who teach those "rules" too, until I literally got mad and decided I'd had enough of that cr... garbage. Now I only try to learn from native speakers. The truth is some books and teachers really overgeneralize, and turn fact that are usually true for contextual reasons into inaccurate "rules" for ESL learners, turning "sometimes" into "always" or "never". Or even worse, teaching rules that don't reflect the actual modern usage of English. But that's another story.

I would say THERE can indicate "existence" (as in "There's a spider, eww!"), or can indicate location (as in "It's over there" or "There it is - There's my wallet", where "there" would be stressed). I wouldn't consider any other rule about articles or anything. Here's an example I think is perfectly ok:
What's in your garage? - Oh, nothing. There's an old car... and there's the old bike you sold me, remember? Oh, and there's my collection of dead bodies too! Ooops, I said too much...

As always, I might well be mistaken. I am not a native speaker, so I can only give an opinion based on what I learned and what I "feel".

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

Grammar Geek — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:32:03 GMT

(FYI, the town is Blue Ball, in the singular. I drive through it when I go to Hershey Park.

What we find more amusing is that Paradise is quite close to Intercourse, which is just down Rt. 340 from Bird-in-Hand. Those Amish!)

jazzmaster - just say "what crap" not "what a crap."

Lastly, maybe it would help if you thought about "There is your brother" or "There's that purse I've been wanting to buy" as "Hey look! Over there" to reinforce the "where?" aspect of that form of "there."

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

jazzmaster — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:53:08 GMT

Kooyeen

jazzmaster
A few grammar books carried by ESL students suggest that "there is" only takes indefinite articles such as "a/an", as in "There is an apple".
Anything else, such as "the, my, our, his", is not supposed to come after "there is".

My brief opinion: those are the kinds of books you should avoid reading. Unfortunately, there's a lot of 'em.

Thanks for coming by, Kooyeen.

"those are the kinds of books you should avoid reading" ... you know what? I could not agree with you more. You got that right. What a crap. Those books are beginning to evolve around themselves and started making up their own rules. I feel very sorry for those who are being taught with those books.

Thanks again.

Re: Is "There is the ..." an exceptional use?

jazzmaster — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:40:11 GMT

Avangi
My advice is that there are two senses of "there is," and the rule applies to only one of them. (I'm not an expert on what ESL students carry, although I'm working on it.)

The first one means something like, "This thing happens to exist." "There is a town in Pennsylvania called 'Blue Balls.' " "There is only one thing my father refused to eat."

The second one means something like, "Look! Do you see what I see?" "There's the snake I've been trying to tell you about." "There's my mother. I hope she brought the money!"

While both senses seek to call our attention to something, the second one is demonstrative, while the first merely asserts its existence, like the French "il y'a."

- A.

Thanks for coming by again, Avangi.

With your and Mr. M's explanations, it is getting clearer and clearer that there are two senses to "there". It must be the "existence" one that I am talking about.

The example Mr. M gave me : "There's your brother ..." makes a lot of sense, too. So my feeling is "Although in many cases "there is the ..." do not make any sense, however, in the cases where you can make a sentence, you are welcome to use it". What do you think?

Also, Avangi, please do not feel obliged, but I would be grateful if you could give me a word or two on my previous post "Whom or Who?": http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhomOrWho/gkzjc/post.htm

Thank you very much.