ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Avangi — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 19:56:08 GMT

YSchneider
Many people from US companys often aswer me in the present perfect like:
Thank you, I've received your e-mail OR Yves, I've spoken to my boss and he...or Yves, I've forwarded your mail to our finance department and it will be processed soon!

Am I wrong or would you use simple past at least in spoken english? Like: Thank you, I got you mail(I received your mail) or Yves, I spoke to my boss and he said...

What's your opinion on this?

Hi,
I was surprised by the variety of responses this generated. In cases where the tense difference serves no useful purpose, I've always taken it as a difference in register (probably ill-advised though well-intentioned) and by extension a difference in spoken vs. written, and casual vs. formal.

Even in business correspondence there are huge differences in the degree of formality one encounters (company A vs. company B; A addressing B; A addressing C; A addressing a stranger in company D, etc.). In general, I think Americans with modest educations tend to use the perfect when they feel the need to sound correct. A particular secretary may feel the need to use it in all her business correspondence, so that it becomes part of her style. At the bar she may speak differently.

I can certainly understand why a non-native would raise the question.

- A.

Edit. Sorry, didn't notice the date.

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Anonymous — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:08:55 GMT

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Re: Written english vs spoken english

CalifJim — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:24:45 GMT

Yankee
Depending on the personalities and experience of the teachers involved, that's probably the most likely time that someone might just blurt out "So-and-so said such-and-such incorrectly", don't you think?

I think my problem is watching too much Masterpiece Theatre. I'm so used to hearing British English that few of the differences even register anymore. I may be incorrectly attributing my reaction to that of others. The subtlety of the difference between present perfect and simple past, in many cases, such as those we've been discussing, is often lost on me, so my reaction is impatience. "What's the big deal?" I ask. "Just pick one and move on!"

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Huevos — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:11:27 GMT

CalifJim
The British, I'm told, find that combinations like "already did" create at least a minor disturbance in their brain waves!

"Already have!" I have always been taught "already" goes with the perfect rather than simple past, but, the truth is we watch so much US TV that the average person would not notice this at all. And these days British schools barely scratch upon the surface of English grammar under the mandatory secondary education of the National Curriculum.

As far as people noticing, my guess is the thing that draws the attention is not the almost inaudible "S", but when a verb is used where the past participle and the simple past are not identical (ate, eaten), or where the US form of the simple past still hasn't yet mutated to the weak form (dived versus dove).

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Yankee — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:14:00 GMT

The conversations have been quite varied and in a wide variety of contexts, about both spoken and written English. As I'm sure you know, there are other things that might be different too. However, in my experience, simple past vs present perfect usage is one of the variations that tends to be picked up on. And, no, my experience is not that Americans usually blurt out "So-and-so said such-and-such incorrectly." Instead I've usually heard more general comments along the lines of "different" or "weird". And whenever possible, I've then tried to get the commenter to elaborate. As I said, people are sometimes able to nail down specifics fairly readily. Sometimes it takes some prying to find out. Sometimes whatever it was that seemed "weird" doesn't get nailed down at all.

Of course, in conversations between British and American ESL teachers, the actual names of the verb forms will be used, and the conversation will tend to get much more specific. Depending on the personalities and experience of the teachers involved, that's probably the most likely time that someone might just blurt out "So-and-so said such-and-such incorrectly", don't you think?

Re: Written english vs spoken english

CalifJim — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 01:20:55 GMT

Yankee
years spent working together with lots of British colleagues and also from the feedback of Americans and Brits working together in multinational companies

So you're saying that a lot of people remark on differences that turn out to involve the use of simple past and present perfect? Do their remarks take the form, "So-and-so said such-and-such incorrectly"?

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Yankee — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:33:38 GMT

CalifJim
It would take a very astute American listener indeed to notice anything 'amiss' in a British speaker's use of the present perfect in any given situation. I'd bet that no American listener would ever say to himself, "How interesting. I would have used the simple past there."

Of course they wouldn't say that, Jim. Most don't even know what the names of verb tenses/forms are. That's the reason I specifically mentioned people who are NOT English (ESL) teachers. I'll grant you that a single difference in usage might slip by unremarked, but repeated or regular differences in usage will be and are noticed. In some cases the listener might be able to pinpoint the difference, in other cases it may simply be a more general feeling that something about the way something was said was unusual. My opinion comes from (among other things) years spent working together with lots of British colleagues and also from the feedback of Americans and Brits working together in multinational companies, both here and in Europe.

That said, I agree that non-native speakers should not drive themselves crazy worrying about British vs American usage of the past tense and the present perfect. The similarities are much more numerous than the differences.

Re: Written english vs spoken english

YSchneider — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:13:42 GMT

So could you just try to explain when you use the present perfect beyond that kind of rule:

So, we can say that generally we use the present perfect to talk about experiences, changes over time, accomplishments, and uncompleted actions we expect to be completed. Examples: Experience: I have been to England many times. Change over time: You have grown since I last saw you. Accomplishment: My daughter has learned to drive.
Uncompleted task expected to be completed: The snow has not stopped.

Maybe like the sentence: I've spoken to my boss... or I've received your e-mail!

Re: Written english vs spoken english

CalifJim — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:59:32 GMT

Huevos
I think non-natives make too much of a big deal of this.

I have to agree. And I don't think the differences have anything whatsoever to do with "written vs. spoken". Zero, zero, zero.

It would take a very astute American listener indeed to notice anything 'amiss' in a British speaker's use of the present perfect in any given situation. I'd bet that no American listener would ever say to himself, "How interesting. I would have used the simple past there."

The other way around is a different question. The British, I'm told, find that combinations like "already did" create at least a minor disturbance in their brain waves!

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Yankee — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:07:31 GMT

Huevos
If I were to say to you "Somebody's shot the president"or you were to say to me "Somebody shot the president" it is very unlikely either of us would conciously register it or find it unnatural

That's just it, Huevos -- I think "Somebody's shot the president" would register immediately as different or atypical or possibly even "wrong". That is precisely the reason I gave that example. I would be willing to bet that there would be more than just a few (non-English-teacher) Americans who, if asked directly, would actually go so far as to claim that "Somebody's shot the president!" is wrong.

Yes, there are by far many more similarities than differences between BE and AmE. Nevertheless, the differences are there.

Re: Written english vs spoken english

YSchneider — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:10:33 GMT

Certainly you're right that it might doesn't matter that much in the end, but still there seem to be some clear preferences! I'd just like to know what's common in the US! Can some other American native tell me his opinion on the mentioned examples?

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Huevos — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 05:57:57 GMT

Yankee
In other words, a native speaker knows whether someone is saying somebody's or somebody. What I'm saying is that in the scenario I gave, I think it is far more likely that an American will use the simple past tense. There won't even be a slight hint of a 'sss' sound connected to the end of the word 'somebody'

I think non-natives make too much of a big deal of this. If I were to say to you "Somebody's shot the president"or you were to say to me "Somebody shot the president" it is very unlikely either of us would conciously register it or find it unnatural, and certainly neither would look upon it as an error.What do you think?

Re: Written english vs spoken english

YSchneider — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 05:13:05 GMT

Hi Yankee or any other Americans!

I just wonder if it's in the end not a difference between written and spoken enlish. Because if been told that if you call your mom after an exam it's far more likely to tell her: I passed the exam then I've passed the exam(at least in the States)

So is the usage of the present perfect as mentioned at the beginning just a way to start a letter or an e-mail?

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Yankee — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:20:21 GMT

Huevos
The difference between the simple past and the present perfect is just a slight "Sss" sound. "somebody shot the president" versus "somebody's shot the president".

Hi Huevos
If you are a native speaker, then I'm sure you also realize that a native speaker will understand whether that 'sss' sound is there or not. In other words, a native speaker knows whether someone is saying somebody's or somebody. What I'm saying is that in the scenario I gave, I think it is far more likely that an American will use the simple past tense. There won't even be a slight hint of a 'sss' sound connected to the end of the word 'somebody' -- because it just won't be there.

As regards "I ate already", Americans commonly use the words already, yet, and just (for example) with the simple past tense -- especially in spoken English:

- Did you see that movie yet?
- I just saw that movie.
- I already saw that movie./I saw that movie already.

Naturally, we use already, yet, and just with the present perfect as well.

Re: Written english vs spoken english

Yankee — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:55:59 GMT

Hi Yves

You'll find both tenses in written news.

I suppose in my example about the president, the person's mindset might be that 1) the shooting is obviously finished, and 2) there is an expectation that the details about when, where, how, etc will be gone into, so the importance of 'when' is already there.