ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Questions on the word but

Avangi — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:16:47 GMT

My grandfather would have said something like, "I dunno b'what I'll go fishin'." I seem to recall "but" followed by "what" in one of your other threads.

Here it means "I think I'll go fishing," or "I don't know other than that I'll go fishing."

Re: Questions on the word but

wholegrain — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:05:44 GMT

It is strange that but can mean something completely different than what we are used to.

Re: Questions on the word but

Avangi — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:01:53 GMT

wholegrain
I am assuming that it doesn't have to be a negative because in the dictionary it says it is OFTEN used after a negative.

Okay, I'm with you now. I should have figured it out from the quote. My mistake. I didn't catch that there were two examples for "but" = "that" after doubt. Sorry. Too tired! I'll catch up in a bit.

Re: Questions on the word but

wholegrain — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:39:04 GMT

For, but to grant that there was so much as a mystery about such a case, might by those persons be held for a tacit surrender of the question.

I think in this sentence but = that, although I think merely could work also.

Whether it is that or merely, it wouldn't change the meaning much.

Re: Questions on the word but

wholegrain — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:36:18 GMT

I am assuming that it doesn't have to be a negative because in the dictionary it says it is OFTEN used after a negative.

Re: Questions on the word but

Avangi — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 03:07:34 GMT

Hi wholgrain, I wish you wouldn't be so danged stingy with your explanations. Especially in this "but" discussion, there are so many disparate uses I often guess wrong about which one you're speaking of. I understand that all the details are fresh in your mind when you post, but I need a little help here.

If you're talking about "but" = "that" when expressing doubt, could you give a couple of examples where "but" means "that" in a positive sentence, following "doubt"?

Best wishes, - A.

Re: Questions on the word but

wholegrain — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:12:37 GMT

Often used after a negative: There is no doubt but right will prevail.

I thought it can be used only after a negative, but it seems it can be used anywhere.

Re: Questions on the word but

wholegrain — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:53:22 GMT

1. On the contrary: the plan caused not prosperity but ruin.

2. Contrary to expectation; yet: She organized her work but accomplished very little. He is tired but happy.

3. Usage Problem Used to indicate an exception: No one but she saw the prowler.

4. With the exception that; except that. Often used with that: would have joined the band but he couldn't spare the time; would have resisted but that they lacked courage.

5. Informal Without the result that: It never rains but it pours.

6. Informal That. Often used after a negative: There is no doubt but right will prevail.

7. That . . . not. Used after a negative or question: There never is a tax law presented but someone will oppose it.

8. If not; unless: "Ten to one but the police have got them" Charlotte M. Yonge.

9. Informal Than: They had no sooner arrived but they turned around and left.

prep.

I went back to the site and noticed that they changed the definition, it is even clearer now.

Re: Questions on the word but

Avangi — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:08:42 GMT

wholegrain
Are you sure? So can you say "For that to not grant that there was so much as a mystery about such a case, might by those persons be held for a tacit surrender of the question."?

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure of very much at the moment. But, yes, I'll stand on this one.

People who believe in freedom also believe that philosophy must not be bounded. The man referred to as "he" is such a person. But he also believes that it should not be made so simple that even idiots can understand it. That is, for example, when having philosophic discussions about the subject in question, they should be made difficult and obscure enough to discourage idiots. Otherwise, they might think they've won the argument. In other words, you must not allow them to think they've "gotten a handle on it." (Not claiming / Failing to claim that the argument is at least somewhat difficult and mysterious, will allow "the idiots" to assume victory.)

"Still, he was far from the illiberality of denying that philosophy duly bounded was not permissible. Only he deemed it at least desirable that, when such a case as that alleged of the unfortunate man was made the subject of philosophic discussion, it should be so philosophized upon, as not to afford handles to those unblessed with the true light. For, but to grant that there was so much as a mystery about such a case, might by those persons be held for a tacit surrender of the question."

Rgdz, A.

Edit. I have nothing against idiots. It just seemed like a convenient short word to refer to "those unblessed with the true light."

Re: Questions on the word but

Avangi — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:54:31 GMT

Hi wholegrain. I think we're finally coming to some resolution on this.

wholegrain
My reference is www.freedictionary.com

6.

that (used esp. after doubt, deny, etc., with a negative): I don't doubt but he will do it.

Somehow I was missing this. My ear readily accepts that "I don't doubt but he will do it" = "I don't doubt that he will do it. Sorry about that!

You had given me the Yahoo Questions reference as support for "but" = "that."

The question was, Does "I don't fear but he will come" = "I don't fear that he will come."

In matter of fact, Yahoo offered no definitive answer to this question. My answer is a resounding "No."

It's a little disconcerting that the same word can have opposite meanings in only slightly different phrases.

Best wishes, - A.

Re: Questions on the word but

wholegrain — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:27:13 GMT

Ah... You could have said so earlier. But you should take note it is not unconditionally the case, always the case. It is used after a negative and especially after doubt, deny, etc.

My reference is www.freedictionary.com

1.	on the contrary; yet: My brother went, but I did not.

2.	except; save: She was so overcome with grief she could do nothing but weep.

3.	unless; if not; except that (fol. by a clause, often with that expressed): Nothing would do but that I should come in.

4.	without the circumstance that: It never rains but it pours.

5.	otherwise than: There is no hope but by prayer.

6.	that (used esp. after doubt, deny, etc., with a negative): I don't doubt but he will do it.

7.	who not; that not: No leaders worthy of the name ever existed but they were optimists.

8.	(used as an intensifier to introduce an exclamatory expression): But she's beautiful!

Re: Questions on the word but

Avangi — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:26:03 GMT

That's exactly the point. I've been arguing from the beginning that "but" and "that" are not interchangeable in these sentences. Even in your Yahoo reference, when asked if they were the same, half of the respondants said "yes," and half said "no." I completely disagree with the opinion I captioned from Yahoo.

Can you please tell me: what is your chief source for saying that "but" = "that"?

I would say that "but" = "except." When you take exception to something, you hold that the opposite is true.

I think this person is a woman.                             (I think it's a woman)
I think that this person is a woman.                        (I think it's a woman)
I fear that this person is a woman.                      (I think it's a woman)
I don't fear that this person is a woman.                (I think it's a man)
I fear the opposite of this person is a woman.          (I think it's a man)
I fear but this person is a woman.                         (I think it's a man)
I don't fear the opposite of this person is a woman.  (I think it's a woman)
I don't fear but this person is a woman.                   (I think it's a woman)
I don't fear but that this person is a woman.            (I think it's a woman)
I don't fear but that this person is dead.                  (I think she's dead)
I don't fear but this person is dead.                         (I think she's dead)
I don't fear that this person is dead.                        (I think she's alive)
I don't fear this person is dead.                               (I think she's alive)

- A.

Re: Questions on the word but

wholegrain — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:00:31 GMT

I don't understand why you think "I don't fear but he is death" means "I don't fear that he is not death" though, since but = that. Can you explain? I am lost.

Re: Questions on the word but

Feebs11 — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:13:26 GMT

That is often the effect that Melville has

Re: Questions on the word but

Avangi — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 02:20:08 GMT

We agree on that. I originally objected to the statement that "but" could be used to replace "that" in the sentence, and I still do. I think it reverses the meaning, whether he's dead, or only coming.

So what's your current position on "I don't fear that he is dead."? Do you think he is, or do you think he isn't??

Best regards, - A.