ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: «...clean grimy hands...»

Ant_222 — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:18:33 GMT

Thank you, MissMandy, for your help and for the tree you sent me!

Re: «...clean grimy hands...»

MissMandy — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:03:00 GMT

Ant_222
Hmmm. I thought that a + singular countable noun was the same as zero article + plural countable noun.

You're absolutely right.

The original sentence may have led the hobbits to go looking for others' dirty hands to wash because the author chose to omit the word "your" before "grimy hands". As I said earlier, its seems like it was poetic license in that case, otherwise I would have expected him to add the "your" back in, just as he did with the faces. My point was more that a plural noun does not always need an a determiner.

I would guess that if any up-and-coming author had written that sentence, his or her editor would not have left it as it was left in this text.

~Miss Mandy

Re: «...clean grimy hands...»

Ant_222 — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:52:23 GMT

MissMandy
...a tells the listener that we are being generic. If you wanted him to wash his own weary face, you'd need a possessive determiner (your)

Hmmm. I thought that a + singular countable noun was the same as zero article + plural countable noun.

Why wouldn't the hobbits look around for other(s)' grimy hands and not their ones? In the original sentence, "hands" doesn't have a determiner either... Having re-reading GG's explanation and trying to unite it with yours, I am starting to think that that might be the case...

Anton

Re: «...clean grimy hands...»

MissMandy — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:30:41 GMT

Haha, you gave me a funny picture in my head. If you told Paul to wash a weary face, he would probably be looking around for someone else's weary face to wash because you can't tell him to wash his own face that way; a tells the listener that we are being generic. If you wanted him to wash his own weary face, you'd need a possessive determiner (your). So, yes, you seem correct.

When thinking about determiners (articles are a category of determiners), you always need to decide if the noun is count or non-count, and if it is count, if it is plural or singular as well as if it is generic of specific. With non-count nouns you need to decide if the noun is specific or generic. Once all of that has been decided, you still have lots of choices.(Go to Wikipedia's "Determiners" page to see the long list.)

If you want, send me an email and I'll send you a PDF graphic that I give to all my grammar students. Determiners are tiny, but powerful and confusing, little words. I'll send the file to anyone who wants it. Just send me your email.

~Miss Mandy

Re: «...clean grimy hands...»

Ant_222 — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:28:45 GMT

MissMandy
Hope that helps!

Sure it does!

I hope one wouldn't say similar things when addressing one person: "Hey, Paul, you should wash a weary face."... Somehow it works only with hands ('cause most of us have two ones) and only with more than one person, right?

Anton

Re: «...clean grimy hands...»

MissMandy — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:40:19 GMT

Unless you are talking about specific hands, you do not need an article of any sort. Generic plurals just don't need articles. I would guess that the author was looking for poetic writing, or else he would have probably added the pronoun "your" just as he did for "weary faces". But it isn't necessary.

Hope that helps!

~Miss Mandy

Re: «...clean grimy hands...»

Ant_222 — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:55:49 GMT

Thank you, GG. I would have never looked at it from this angle...

Re: «...clean grimy hands...»

Grammar Geek — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:48:42 GMT

The word is supposed to be hands.

You will wash hands that are grimy and wash faces that are weary.

«...clean grimy hands...»

Ant_222 — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:40:31 GMT

Hi, evetybody.

Below is the third and so far the last question concerning LOTR:

Tom Bombadil: "You shall clean grimy hads and wash your weary faces."

Neither an article nor a pronoun modifies "hads". How is that possible?

Thanks you very much in advance,
Anton