ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Dog presence/dog's presence

MrPedantic — Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:56:51 GMT

Hello Blackmamba and Paco

I can't see Nona on the boards, so I'll try to answer this.

There is a difference between 'dog's presence' and 'dog presence'. The former is definite, the latter indefinite.

'He detected the dog's presence' - i.e. Spot's presence.

'He detected the dog presence/dog-presence' - i.e. a canine presence.

I don't know where the rules are kept, but it seems to me that any two nouns can be put together to make a compound noun. At random:

'keyboard-toaster' - a device for toasting keyboards
'phone-pencil' - a pencil you keep by the phone
'intray-scissors' - scissors for cutting up intrays, or scissors kept in an intray
'window-cup' - a cup kept in the window, or a cup with a window (not very useful)

All that's required is for them to make some kind of sense. Hyphenation is helpful, as it warns us that we're dealing with something different.

In practice, though, it's probably best only to use combinations you can find in the dictionary (e.g. 'child care'). Otherwise it's likely to sound odd.

Let me know if this doesn't answer the question. ('If this is question-unspecific...')

MrP

Re: Dog presence/dog's presence

blackmamba — Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:44:10 GMT

Paco,
this is exactly my problem. I'm never sure when I'm supposed to use a possessive and when a noun noun compound. Any suggestion where I can find some rules about it?
Thanks for your help!
BM

Re: Dog presence/dog's presence

paco2004 — Thu, 09 Dec 2004 21:59:19 GMT

Nona

I think what Blackmamba is asking is how to construct noun phrases of English. Some English learners would find it difficult to make different the following constructions for example.
(1) child care (2) child's mother (3) memory of the child (4) childish trick.
Especially it is very difficult for English learners to know in what occasion one can use a noun-noun compound like (1).

paco

Re: Dog presence/dog's presence

nona the brit — Thu, 09 Dec 2004 21:38:28 GMT

But the first example was surely just a plain old possessive. We were not talking about my uncle's dog's presence or anyone elses for that matter, just some dog.

Re: Dog presence/dog's presence

paco2004 — Thu, 09 Dec 2004 21:33:51 GMT

Double Possessives quoted from Webster Grammar

Do we say "a friend of my uncle" or "a friend of my uncle's"? In spite of the fact that "a friend of my uncle's" seems to overwork the notion of possessiveness, that is usually what we say and write. The double possessive construction is sometimes called the "post-genitive" or "of followed by a possessive case or an absolute possessive pronoun" (from the Oxford English Dictionary, which likes to show off). The double possessive has been around since the fifteenth century, and is widely accepted. It's extremely helpful, for instance, in distinguishing between "a picture of my father" (in which we see the old man) and "a picture of my father's" (which he owns). Native speakers will note how much more natural it is to say "He's a fan of hers" than "he's a fan of her."

Generally, what follows the "of" in a double possessive will be definite and human, not otherwise, so we would say "a friend of my uncle's" but not "a friend of the museum's [museum, instead]." What precedes the "of" is usually indefinite (a friend, not the best friend), unless it's preceded by the demonstratives this or that, as in "this friend of my father's."

possessive

Re: Dog presence/dog's presence

nona the brit — Thu, 09 Dec 2004 20:45:06 GMT

The latter if there is one dog. I don't see why it is 'double possessive' though.

Dog presence/dog's presence

blackmamba — Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:55:08 GMT

Hi all!
I'm very confused about what I think is called "double possessive" (?)
Should I write
"the dog presence has been detected....(I know, it's rubbish, just to give you an example)
or
"the dog's presence has been detected"?
thanks a lot