ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Wish

Mister Micawber — Sat, 01 Jan 2005 04:16:38 GMT

I cannot speak for French; perhaps it is just a matter of terminology. I know that Spanish has a distinct set of verb forms used to express condition ('si tuviese hambre, comería' = if I were hungry, I would eat'). This sentence uses the subjunctive form for the 'if' clause and the conditional form for the matrix clause. Still, 'conditional' is considered a type of sentence, not a distinct mood, although it does use a distinct verb form.

In English, 'conditional' is simply one type of clause (along with clauses of concession, contrast, purpose, result, comment etc.). There is no 'conditional verb' form; in a few cases we use a subjunctive verb form ('if I were King of the Forest...') but in most cases we do not ('unless you finish your dinner, you will get no dessert'; 'should you ever come to London, please phone me', etc.)

Re: Wish

Hela — Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:35:31 GMT

Really ? Why is the conditional a mood in French and not in English?? That's interesting!?
But if it's neither a tense nor a mood, what is it then ?

Look forward to hearing from you,
Hela

Re: Wish

Mister Micawber — Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:20:13 GMT

Yes. However, we must remember that 'conditional' is not a mood, it is merely a kind of sentence.

In English, there are three moods-- indicative, imperative and subjunctive; two voices-- active and passive; and three aspects-- simple, perfect and continuous.

Re: Wish

Hela — Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:00:06 GMT

Good morning Mister Micawber,

So if I understood well what you said, the modals in the following sentences are not in the subjunctive but rather in the conditional mood.

1) I was afraid it MIGHT snow; so I stayed home.

2) However cold it MIGHT be, he would have a cold shower.

3) I arrived early so that I COULD get a good view of the procession.

4) I arrived early so that I SHOULD / WOULD not miss anything.

Correct ?

Kind regards,
Hela

Re: Wish

Mister Micawber — Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:44:35 GMT

Therefore, these dependent clauses are not in a subjunctive:

1) They worked day and night SO THAT the building MIGHT BE finished in time.
2) The Indians tribes were wiped out SO THAT civilization MIGHT advance.

They are simply putative clauses of result, which require the modal of possibility.

You have rain, and we have an amazing carpet of light, fluffy snow, the first of the year. Finally, it looks like Christmas!

Re: Wish

Mister Micawber — Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:34:39 GMT

I've tried to find my way through the maze of our past conversation here, Hela, and I see that I have made at least one obvious mistake, and that you were correct in part of your original assumption. I have reviewed my understanding of the Subjunctive Mood, and this sentence-- 'If I caught you, I would eat you'-- is certainly not present subjunctive, it is just a conditional sentence in which we use the past form of the verb for possible future.

I have found myself without a clear understanding of the subjunctive, and I think I had better lay out the terms of the subjunctive in English (from Greenbaum & Quirk) for both of our benefits:

I. There are two forms of the subjunctive, called present and past.

-- The present subjunctive in all persons is 'be' for the verb 'to be', and the base form for all other verbs. Thus:
---- They prefer that I be quiet.
---- They suggested that I be quiet.
---- They have requested that he remain in the country.
---- They will be demanding that he not leave the country.

-- The past subjunctive exists only in one form, 'were', as a past form of 'to be':
---- If I were better informed, I could teach English.

II. There are two main uses of the present subjunctive, the mandative and the formulaic.

-- The mandative subjunctive is used in a 'that'-clause after a verb, adjective or noun of demand, recommendation, proposal, intention or similar notion:
---- I insisted that she stay for dinner.
---- It is necessary that the Eiffel Tower be repainted.
---- The requirement that the president resign for defalcation is fixed in stone.

-- The formulaic subjunctive is used in certain set expressions:
---- Come what may, I shall always be your friend.
---- God bless America.

III. There is one main use for the past subjunctive ('were'). It is used in conditional and concessive clauses and in subordinate clauses after 'wish' and 'suppose':
---- If I were you, I would not quit the day job.
---- He acts as though he were the lord of the realm.
---- I wish he were not so demanding.

It also appears in the stock phrase, 'as it were': He was, as it were, a little dictator.

Those are the limits of the use of the subjunctive in English. Other forms of expression exist as equivalents of the subjunctive, such as:

I insist that he should finish quickly.
I wish I was dead.

I apologize for my earlier confusion, and I hope you will review our previous discussion in the light of this more accurate summary.

(I will get to your latest questions in another post.)

Re: Wish

Hela — Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:22:17 GMT

Dear Mister Micawber,

It seems that my list of questions for the year 2004 is not finished yet. Before having a rest, if ever we let you do so, would you please tell me if "might" in the following sentences is a subjunctive ?

1) They worked day and night SO THAT the building MIGHT BE finished in time.

2) The Indians tribes were wiped out SO THAT civilization MIGHT advance.

Have a nice day (it has been raining all day at home) and I hope you'll enjoy yourself tomorrow.

Even if it doesn't look like it, let's hope for the best for the year 2005.

Wish you all prosperity and good health,
Hela

Re: Wish

Mister Micawber — Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:06:17 GMT

Yes, but it occurs to me that it should be 'would have rather read a book than watched a boring football game' for the sake of parallelism.

And a Happy New Year to you, too. Ah, me!-- what will 2005 bring?

Re: Wish

Hela — Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:09:18 GMT

Thank you Mr Micawber for your reply.

Just to be sure, is "Tom would rather HAVE READ a book than (HAVE) WATCHED a boring football match" a correct English sentence ?

Thanks again and I wish you a very happy new year.

Yours sincerely,
Hela

Re: Wish

Mister Micawber — Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:01:52 GMT

Hi Hela,

A/ a) "It was high time we went" -- 'high' time is the last available time, the critical time, the last time before it will be too late. This sentence means that it is getting very late and the hosts would probably like them to leave; or, the train departs in 10 minutes and it takes 9 minutes to drive to the station from here; or, they have been meaning to see The Last Samurai Part II for two weeks now, and it will be leaving the theatre soon; etc.

b) is wrong; I cannot make sense of it.

B/ All are correct, as annotated by you. (I speak for the English, not for the translation.)

There are all kinds of uses of the infinitive, Hela; I could hardly supply examples of all of them, but googling turns up lots of pages; similarly, you will have about as much luck as I in finding 'so that' and other grammar exercises on the internet. I don't know any specific sites; I would just start googling. Maybe some other mods have bookmarked some.

Re: Wish

Hela — Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:36:08 GMT

Hello everyone,

Here I am again with questions on the subjunctive:

A/ Last time we saw that a) "It WAS high time we went" was correct, but what does it mean exactly? And is b) "It WAS (high) time we had gone" correct ? If yes, what would it mean?

B/ Are the following sentences correct ? If not, why?

1) a) Iwould rather you told her the truth. (now or tomorrow)
(je préfèrerais que vous lui disiez la vérité)

b) I would rather you had told her the truth. (yesterday)
(J'aurais aimé / préféré que vous lui ayez dit la vérité)

2) a) Tom would rather read than talk. (bare infinitive)
(Tom préfère lire plutôt que parler)

b) Tom would rather have read than talked ??? (perfect infinitive)
(Tom aurait préféré lire plutôt que parler)?

Would you have some better sentences with the infinitive forms, please? And for those who understand French I just put the translation to check if I understood the English sentences well.

Many thanks.

Kind regards,
Hela

PS: Can somebody tell me where, on the net, I can find plenty of :
- sentences with "so that" + indicative or subjunctive;
- exercises of "grammar in context" (on tenses and may other things) ?

Re: Wish

Hela — Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:45:38 GMT

Good morning Mr Micawber,

Internet is just fantastic! It's as if I HAD an English teacher with me at home!

A/ I thought that :

1) the PRESENT subjunctive had the form of the infinitive, just as in "COME what it may!" "God SAVE the Queen" etc.

2) the PAST subjunctive had the form of the simple past as in "I wish I WERE..."

3) the PERFECT subjunctive had the form ot the past perfect of the indicative as in "If I HAD STUDIED my grammar at school, I wouldn't be bothering Mr Micawber today!"

B/ (Do we sometimes need a subjunctive after the expression SO THAT ?)

"Are you speaking of the archaic form 'so that he arrive safely, he could not care of the condition of his yacht'?"

Yes, I am indeed!

Have a very nice weekend,
Hela

PS: I'll ask you more questions on the subjunctive later this academic year because I have so many in store!

Re: Wish

Mister Micawber — Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:59:18 GMT

A/ In 'if'-clauses of conditional sentences we can have either the subjunctive or indicative mood:

If I catch you (present indicative), I will eat you.
If I caught you (present subjunctive), I would eat you.

1) If I / he were (present subjunctive) rich, I would /should // he would (only) (conditional) buy a yacht.

2) If he comes (present indicative), we will / shall // they will (future) go and sail on the Thames.

3) If he had a yacht (present subjunctive = he doesn't have one), we would/should // he would (only) (conditional) sail across the Mediterranean.

4) If he had had (past subjunctive) a boat, we would/should have sailed (perfect conditional) across the Mediterranean Sea.

B/ Do we sometimes need a subjunctive after the expression SO THAT ?

Are you speaking of the archaic form 'so that he arrive safely, he could not care of the condition of his yacht'?

Re: Wish

Hela — Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:30:47 GMT

Thank you very very much, Mr Micawber.

Now I understand better. It's true I tend to confuse the subjunctive with the conditional.

A/ after IF-CLAUSES we can have either the conditional mood or the subjunctive, is that right?

1) If I / he WERE (past subj) rich, I would /should // he would (only) (= present conditional?) buy a yacht (spelling???).

2) If he COMES (indicative), we will / shall // they will (future) go and sail on the Thames.

3) If he HAD a yacht (past subj = he doesn't have one?), we would/should / he would (only) (= present conditional?) sail across the Mediterranean.

4) If he HAD HAD (perfect subj?) a boat, we would (should?) have sailed (past condtitional?) across the Meditarranean Sea.

B/ Do we sometimes need a subjunctive after the expression SO THAT ?

Thanks you in advance for your patience.
Hela

Re: Wish

Mister Micawber — Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:58:43 GMT

In your ( 8) X 'In case someone ASKED, I was never here.'-- 'in case' means 'if' (possibility); but 'asked' is past tense (the asking already happened), so there is no logical possibility that the listener could subsequently tell them that 'she was never here'!

Your only choice is 'in case someone SHOULD ASK, I was never here'. Then, the asking remains in the future and there is still a possibility for the listener to say 'she was never here'.

In (10), the correct choices are:

'We warned them so that they wouldn't fall.'
They warned us so that we shouldn't / wouldn't fall.' ('we' is first person plural)

In your sentence, as I said previously, 'shall/should' is for first person only in this usage' (and is generally considered formal as such).

'Would/should' here is not a question of the subjunctive. 'Should' appears as a substitute or alternate expression for the mandative subjunctive in such sentences as 'they insisted that I should hurry up' (where the subjunctive form is 'they insisted that I hurry up'). 'Would/should' also appear in conditional sentences, some of which also contain subjunctive forms, and this may be the source of your confusion. Here are two more examples, with the subjunctive form of 'be' in the 'if'-clause:

'If I were you, I should/would hurry up.' ('I' is first person singular)
'If he were you, he would hurry up.'