ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Tense & meaning

Hela — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:03:18 GMT

Thank you to you both.

Kind regards,
Hela

Re: Tense & meaning

CalifJim — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:03:34 GMT

"when" with the progressive is OK, yes, but "while" is probably more often used with the progressive if the focus is on simultaneity.
When I'm feeling lonely, I call a friend.

a) sounds like Ann's arrival was your cue to leave. (consecutive)
"I was just leaving when Ann arrived" makes it more simultaneous.
b), c) the "while" makes them simultaneous.

CJ

Re: Tense & meaning

just the truth — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:25:53 GMT

Hela:

1) I have just noticed though that Just the Truth used WHEN with the progressive, is it OK?

>>>>>>>>>>>>

JTT: I believe that the sentence you are referring to, Hela, is actually your sentence. I just copied it.

My only point then was that on RARE occasions, in very limited circumstances, the present perfect is used with a past time adverbial.

As to your question,

Is it okay to use WHEN with the progressive? ,

yes, it is. Try plugging such a phrase into an Advanced Google Search.

Re: Tense & meaning

Hela — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:10:41 GMT

Thank you CalifJim and Just the Truth for your explanations.

1) I have just noticed though that Just the Truth used WHEN with the progressive, is it OK?

2) Do you consider the following as SIMULTANEOUS ACTIONS or not?

a) I left the house when Ann arrived. (simultaneous or consecutive ?)
b) While I was making coffee Ann arrived. (simultaneous or consecutive ?)
c) I was cooking dinner while my brother was washing the car. (= simultaneous)

Are there any other ambiguous cases like a) and b) ?

All the best,
Hela

Re: Tense & meaning

just the truth — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:27:40 GMT

2)
b) I have cut my finger when I was cutting onions. (correct sentence ?)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Both the CGEL and Michael Swan point out that the present perfect is, on rare occasions, used with a past time adverbial. It is very uncommon and the circumstances are quite restricted. I just read yesterday in the newspaper, where PM Tony Blair did this very thing.

Generally, the present perfect is used to introduce a past event that the speaker wants to make current or add importance to. Further discussion of this now introduced event is then NORMALLY done so with the simple past.

So the norm could be,

I've cut my finger. [introduction with PP] I did it when I was cutting onions. [switch to somple past]

Re: Tense meaning

CalifJim — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:14:52 GMT

Yes, but that's not as satisfactory as "I cut my finger while I was chopping onions."

One of my changes has nothing to do with what you are focusing on: The use of the same verb "cut" in both clauses didn't seem to work for my ear!

The second change is probably more relevant to what you are asking. "while" generally introduces a past progressive, not "when".

Nevertheless, "simple past + WHEN + simple past" is possible: I cut my finger when I picked up the knife. I cut myself when I began to chop the onions. I learned English when I studied in Paris. I apologized when I realized he was right. I finished quickly when I looked at the clock and noticed the time. Mireille was right when she said that Didier had lied.

CJ

Re: Tense meaning

Hela — Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:02:41 GMT

Thank you CalifJim, that's very nice of you.

One more question: Can I say "I CUT my finger WHEN I was cutting onions"? ? simple past + WHEN ?

See you,
Hela

Re: Tense meaning

CalifJim — Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:29:51 GMT

Yes. You've got it.

In the rain example, both are OK.
The likely distinction is more or less as follows.

"It has rained all night" is a conclusion you draw when you wake up and look out the window. You see that it has rained all night. It makes the raining all night an achievement of Mother Nature, thought of as a single weather event. Or you could say "It must have rained all night". This stresses even more that you are concluding from the evidence you see in the morning.

Note that there is yet another circumstance in which you would say "It has rained all night".
-- I hear that this region is famous for long periods of rain. Has it ever rained all night?
-- Yes, it has. It has rained all night (on some occasions). In fact that happened twice last month.

"It has been raining all night" can be used in exactly the same circumstances as the form above, and it often is (waking up and seeing the wet roads). But it cannot be used in the example of the region famous for rain, i.e., you can't have "It has been raining all night on some occasions". (I doubt that even a forced reading could contextualize it.)
The progressive form can also be used in the case where you have actually personally experienced the rain throughout the night, perhaps because the sound of the rain kept you awake, or because you yourself were up all night studying English and therefore were awake to observe the rain all night! This form makes the raining all night a continuous activity.

CJ

Re: Tense & meaning

CalifJim — Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:58:20 GMT

The distinction you make between these is correct. It's what I would sense as the difference. You have a good grasp of it.

Re: Tense meaning

Hela — Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:51:13 GMT

Dear CalifJim,

I'd like to clarify one point in your answer. You told me that in the PAST TENSE an adverbial of DURATION works more with the SIMPLE form of the verb, whether in the PRESENT TENSE it works better with the PROGRESSIVE form of the verb, is that so?

ex1: We WATCHED tv ALL NIGHT.
We WERE WATCHING tv AT 10 o'clock last night. (AT = adverbial of point in time)

ex2: It RAINED ALL DAY.
It was raining WHEN I went to bed. / When I woke up it was raining.

ex3: I WROTE letters ALL morning.
I WAS WRITING letters WHEN the phone rang. (WHEN = point in time)

but:

ex4: a) It has rained ALL NIGHT.
b) It HAS BEEN RAINING all night. [b) is better than a) ? but is a) OK?]

Thank you very much for your help.
Best regards,
Hela

Re: Tense & meaning

Andrei — Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:33:40 GMT

CalfJim

1.He has learnt to fly an Airbus.

2.He has been learning to fly an Airbus.

The difference between the two sentences are as follows:

In the first sentence, I am telling you, that the pilot has completed the study of flying an Airbus.

In the second sentence, I am telling you, the pilot is still in the process of learning how to fly or manouver an Airbus.

I am eager to read the way you distinguish the difference in the meaning of my sentences.

Obviously, you could say he is learning to fly an Airbus instead of he has been learning to fly an Airbus.
I am not interested in the present continuous form in this scenario.

Re: Tense & meaning

Andrei — Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:11:47 GMT

CalifJim

A great answer from you. This must have taken a lot of time and energy. Hela should be indebted to you for this excellent and great answer.

Re: Tense & meaning

Hela — Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:59:49 GMT

Thank you very much indeed Califjim for your explanations.

I'll study them very carefully and I'll come back to you to tell you if I grasped everything.

All the best,
Hela

Re: Tense & meaning

CalifJim — Mon, 10 Jan 2005 05:21:17 GMT

The most natural are 1a, 2a, 3b, 4a, 5a. 2b is incorrect. An adverbial indicating a point in time ("when I was cutting onions") is incompatible with the perfect aspect. ["while I was cutting onions" is more idiomatic, but also impossible in this sentence.]

With the past tense ( Example 1 ) adverbials of duration (all night, all day, all morning, for a long time) are most natural with the non-progressive of a verb which expresses an activity. [All your examples are examples of activities.] On the other hand, adverbials of a point in time are most natural with the progressive.

We watched TV all night. We were watching TV at 10 o'clock last night.
It rained all day. It was raining when I went to bed. When I woke up it was raining.
I wrote letters all morning. I was writing letters when the phone rang.

With perfect aspect (All but Example 1) the non-progressive focuses on achievement rather than activity. To retain the idea of activity, the progressive is applied. The progressive aspect in this context is more compatible with adverbials of duration. The present perfect progressive is typically used when some activity has been taking place up to the present moment and the focus is on the current relevance of that activity.

It's been raining all night. (That's why the pavement is wet this morning.)
It has rained twice this week. (That's the current state of the weather for this week. In a strange way, this is an "achievement" for nature, I suppose! In any case the focus is not on the "activity" of raining in this sentence.)

I've been writing letters all morning. [It must still be morning to say this! Note the focus on activity.]
I've already written three letters this morning. [It must still be morning to say this. Note the focus on achievement.]
I was writing letters at 10:30 this morning. [It need not still be morning to say this. Typically it is not still morning when this is said.]
I wrote letters all morning. [In the typical use it is not still morning when this is said.]
I wrote a letter this morning. [Here the change to singular changes an activity (letter writing) into an achievement (the completion of the writing of a single letter).]

I've been cutting onions ("continuously until now" implied). That's why my eyes are red ("now" implied). I have cut the onions ("sometime before now" implied; "they are currently in the state of being cut" implied). (They are ready to add to the stew.("now" implied.))

In the paper reading example, the speaker questions what activity caused the current state of affairs, namely, that the newspaper is messed up. The focus would not normally be on the "achievement" of messing up the paper, nor on the "achievement" of reading the paper, but rather on the "activities" of reading, and consequently messing up, the paper.

CJ

Re: Tense & meaning

Andrei — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:02:42 GMT

1) a) We watched TV all night.
b) We were watching TV all night.

What is the context for the above?

You said you didn't sleep last night.

What have you been doing all night, then?

We were watching TV all night; we were playing cards all night; we were dancing all night.

Let us say that the only thing you did was looked at TV. Then I would write ' We watched TV all night.
[Others might tell you the difference between the two in another way.]

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2) a) I have been cutting onions, this is why my eyes look red.
b) I have cut my finger when I was cutting onions. (correct sentence ?)

If you meet someone just after cutting onions, I would use the first sentence. Because your eyes are red as a consequence of cutting onions.

The second one is proper to use even after the cutting of onions took place some hours ago. Of course, it could be said seconds or minutes after cutting the onions. It is up to to you to use the proper sentence.

After 3 or 4 days later, you could tell someone about the incident using the second sentence too. Why? Still you have the wound , you have some pains, you have a bandage etc.

You could even use the simple past sentence 3 or 4 days later.
I cut my finger when I was cutting onions 3 days ago.
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3) a) It has rained all night.
b) It has been raining all night.

You wake up early in the morning and look through your window and say the first sentence.

I would use the second one if it is still raining. It is raining cats and dogs.
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4) a) I have been writing letters all morning.
b) I have written letters all morning.

The first one means even now you are in the process of writing letters.

The second one means thay you may have just stopped writing letters.
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