http://www.englishforums.com/English/EslGeneralEnglishGrammar-Questions/Forum12.htmAsk your questions on grammar and get your sentence checked. We answer lots of different types of general English grammar questions here. <font color=red>DO NOT post paragraphs and compositions here. Post them in our <a href="http://www.englishforums.com/English/EssayReportCompositionWriting/Forum9.htm"><b>Essay, Report and Composition Writing Forum</b></a>.</font>enXMOD (Build: 3607.32596)http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#694093Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:42:08 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:694093Kooyeen0http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#694093http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-694093.xmlYou&#39;ve now added additional context to the sentence and also killed off Bill, so we are no longer even talking about the same sentence. (I thought only M. did things like that.) LOL, yeah, sorry, but I was actually asking about the structure &quot;to be seen doing something&quot; in general. Maybe I had read your posts too quickly, so I thought you wanted to imply there was something &quot;unusual&quot; about that structure. Now I understand that you were only talking about &quot; The girls were seen swimming in the pool by Bill &quot;, which is correct grammatically, because it has the same structure, but it&#39;s odd in practice, because it&#39;s unlikely to be heard. I do hope you agree that saying &quot; The girls were seen...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693832Fri, 03 Apr 2009 04:35:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693832Avangi1http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693832http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693832.xmlPersonally, I prefer books/texts by authors who have a point of view, or represent a school of thought. The bias is up front, and the author speaks clearly while defending his position. &quot;Manuals&quot; on the other hand often try to cover everything out of a sense of obligation, and much of it comes out boring and without passion. There seem to be several approaches being practiced today, all having their strengths and weaknesses. For example, Quirk and Swann are often quoted on this site, and occasionally appear to disagree with each other. According to Marius Hancu, the term &quot;gerund&quot; isn&#39;t mentioned by either of them. Still, the rules relating to gerunds are staunchly defended here. My point is only that a text with...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693803Fri, 03 Apr 2009 02:50:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693803Yankee2http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693803http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693803.xmlHi Kooyeen &quot;The girls were seen swimming in the pool a few hours before they were found killed in the attic&quot; This thread deals with transformations. You did not provide us with an active version of that sentence. Why not? You&#39;ve now added additional context to the sentence and also killed off Bill, so we are no longer even talking about the same sentence. (I thought only M. did things like that.) I do hope you agree that saying &quot; The girls were seen swimming in the pool by Bill &quot; is clumsy and awkward. That dooms a healthy active sentence to a painful death by mechanical manipulation. (OK, I was laying it on a little thick there...) There is simply no need to change that active sentence to a passive one. There...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693751Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:02:41 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693751Goodman3http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693751http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693751.xmlHI Kooyeen, Thanks you posting this question. I think it&#39;s perfect! &lt;&lt;&quot;The girls were seen swimming in the pool a few hours before they were found killed in the attic&quot; sound bad? &gt;&gt; I don&#39;t want to steal the thunder from Amy. I just want to cast my 2 cent since this sentence got me so charged up in debate.. This is a perfect example of &quot;agentless passive&quot;. There are 3 passive scenarios constructed into the sentence. &quot; were found killed&quot; is a double passive where &quot;by&quot; is omitted.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693746Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:24:02 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693746Yoong Liat4http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693746http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693746.xmlAs regards very poorly written grammar books on the market, I cannot find any in the bookshops in my country because they are very selective about the grammar books they sell. I think the books must meet their stingent standards before they are put on the shelves.  That&#39;s interesting. So, who decides what can be sold? Where I live, there are only a few book companies, the most popular being Popular. It has many branches. I visited the branch near my house a few days ago and the title of the grammar books on sale is &#39;Grammar&#39; published by Oxford. There are no other grammar books available. I believe the director of Popular decides what grammar books are good enough to be put on the shelves. The company wants only the best...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693737Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:53:22 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693737Kooyeen5http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693737http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693737.xmlThe sentence &quot;Bill saw the girls swimming in the pool&quot; is a perfect example of a sentence that simply should NOT be transformed to a passive sentence at all. Yo Amy, does &quot;The girls were seen swimming in the pool a few hours before they were found killed in the attic&quot; sound bad? I thought sentences like that were fine. Did you mean it is bad in that particular context? Hmm, yeah, &quot;The girls were seen swimming in the pool by Bill&quot; doesn&#39;t sound like something you are likely to hear often, I think, but... I don&#39;t know. Let me know what you meant, thanks. Just because a book calls itself a &quot;grammar book&quot;, that does not automatically mean that it is a good, or even an accurate book. And...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693733Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:42:46 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693733Goodman6http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693733http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693733.xmlThank you very much Amy for this insighful post. This was the point I was trying to make. When we offew help to learners, I believe we don&#39;t just consider the grammatical aspect but mechanical and semantics as well. The whole argument stemmed from this infamous sentence: &quot;the girls were seen swimming in the pool which I bracketted to denote its undesirability. In reality, the argument was futile as the intent quickly became lost when the focus was diverted to &quot;authoritative quotes&quot; and my qualification to comment. At the end, all agreed &quot;by Bill&quot; is unnatural. Case closed! I like this: &lt;&lt;English is not a mechanical device. Telling learners to mechanically create a heap of unnatural sentences is not my...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693727Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:10:23 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693727Yankee7http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693727http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693727.xmlAs regards very poorly written grammar books on the market, I cannot find any in the bookshops in my country because they are very selective about the grammar books they sell. I think the books must meet their stingent standards before they are put on the shelves. That&#39;s interesting. So, who decides what can be sold?http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693698Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:33:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693698Yoong Liat8http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/4/wdrxc/Post.htm#693698http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693698.xmlHi Koh 1. I know that you always look for the good stuff.   2. I am also aware that there are other English teachers on this site who post questions about information they have gotten from the grammar books they have to use. I think it&#39;s great when a teacher goes to the trouble of verifying the accuracy of what they have to teach. 3. No grammar book will ever be 100% perfect, and not every good grammar book works well for every student. But there certainly are plenty of very poorly written grammar books on the market, aren&#39;t there?    Hi Amy 1. Thanks for the compliment.  2. I fully agree. 3.  I notice some grammarians and authorities on English usage sometimes disagree on what the correct usage is. As regards very poorly...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693662Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:37:31 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693662Yankee9http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693662http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693662.xmlHi A I can understand the reluctance to use the term &quot;gerund&quot;, but it&#39;s a fact of life that lots of learners are taught about things called &quot;gerunds&quot;, so you just have to deal with it. There are also people who will get all hot and bothered if you refer to the present perfect as a &quot;tense&quot;.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693647Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:45:29 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693647Avangi10http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693647http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693647.xmlHi Amy, On this interesting subject, the thread you indirectly directed me to yesterday included a post by Marius Hancu claiming that since the &quot;great&quot; Quirk and Swan(n) never mention the term &quot;gerund,&quot; neither should anyone else - an interesting case of going to an English grammar site to check up on an English grammar text. - A. BTW, many thanks for your input on the misuse of exercises. I tried to post earlier, but got Ooopsed. Mozart would agree with you. He says it should always be beautiful. (Hmmm, He said it should always have been beautiful.)http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693643Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:22:25 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693643Yankee11http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693643http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693643.xmlHi Koh I know that you always look for the good stuff. I am also aware that there are other English teachers on this site who post questions about information they have gotten from the grammar books they have to use. I think it&#39;s great when a teacher goes to the trouble of verifying the accuracy of what they have to teach. No grammar book will ever be 100% perfect, and not every good grammar book works well for every student. But there certainly are plenty of very poorly written grammar books on the market, aren&#39;t there?http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693640Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:04:35 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693640Yoong Liat12http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693640http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693640.xmlHi Amy  I am aware that many teachers are required to use specific course books. Unfortunately, some of the books that teachers are required to use are poorly written and conceived ones. Some teachers recognize this fact and do what they can in the classroom in order to compensate. However, I&#39;m sure many don&#39;t recognize the poor quality -- and I feel sure this is sometimes because they themselves learned English with the same sorts of awful books.   When I say English usage/grammar books, I refer to those that are well-written. Some of the books written by non-native speakers are not good enough.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693636Thu, 02 Apr 2009 14:52:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693636Yankee13http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693636http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693636.xmlHi A What I wanted to know about transformations was how the exercise writers felt / feel about the learner&#39;s choices between a good sentence and a good transformation. In my opinion, exercises for transforming active sentences into passive ones are frequently created by people who do not actually know what they are doing. Bad writers may know the mechanics of the transformation, but seem to neglect just about everything else. Just because a book calls itself a &quot;grammar book&quot;, that does not automatically mean that it is a good, or even an accurate book. There are lots of grammar books on the market that I would NEVER recommend to a student. That said, I am aware that many teachers are required to use specific course books....http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693633Thu, 02 Apr 2009 14:44:53 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693633Yoong Liat14http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693633http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693633.xmlHi Avangi You wrote: &quot;I should take your advice, Yoong, and seek out the opinions of linguists as to exactly what constitutes a good transformation.&quot; You will find a wealth of information on transformations if you refer to English usage books. However, what Yankee said is correct. The sentences in the Passive Voice may not sound natural. The transformation exercises are good only for improving English, but they are not helpful in the sense that students may think that the sentences in the Passive Voice are widely accepted as good English, spoken as well as written.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693625Thu, 02 Apr 2009 14:27:56 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693625Yoong Liat15http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693625http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693625.xmlYou had been corrected more than once..Let&#39;s just say &quot;we went to different schools&quot; Shall we ? That&#39;s fine. I am still learning from the posts answered by other members. It&#39;s true there are some members who disagreed with my replies, and posted theirs but I did not go against what they said. I also disagreed with some replies given by other members and I posted mine. However, they did not go against what I said. We are here to guide members who are weak in English and learn from others whose command of English is good, be they native or non-native speakers. It seems that you don&#39;t need English usage and grammar books. You say that you refer to one when you are in doubt, but I have yet to see you quote from...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693479Thu, 02 Apr 2009 06:39:32 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693479Avangi16http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693479http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693479.xmlIf you want to know more about transformations Hi Yoong. Are we having fun yet? I think I&#39;m going to invest what little money I have left in an English Usage textbook company. They&#39;re getting some good press here! What I wanted to know about transformations was how the exercise writers felt / feel about the learner&#39;s choices between a good sentence and a good transformation. I knew I had expressed my objections some time ago about omitting the actor, and switching participles and infinitives. It seemed you guys were continuing the battle based solely on the objective of making a quality sentence. That may, after all, be the best approach. Anyway, I thought I&#39;d express my objections again, lest they be overlooked. What I...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693478Thu, 02 Apr 2009 06:29:50 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693478Goodman17http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/3/wdrxc/Post.htm#693478http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693478.xmlAccording to your logic, my asnwers were deemed invalid until I quoted an appproved source? Am I understanding correctly? If you recap my last posting, I believe we both agreed the sentence is better off without &quot;by bill&quot;. What was your point?? Although I am not a native speaker, it doesn&#39;t mean my comment is invalid and less credible. Anyone can post a comment which he gahters from a source on the Net and &quot;the book.&quot;. I only go to the book when I am in doubt. I don&#39;t do tongue and cheeks on the forum. If I agree I&#39;ll tell you. If I don&#39;t, I&#39;&#39;ll try to go to great length to exaplain why. You call dsiagreement &quot;opposition&quot; which means either you have a perception problem, or you...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693459Thu, 02 Apr 2009 05:28:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693459Yoong Liat18http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693459http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693459.xmlGoodman I wrote: It is as simple as that. I advise you to refer to English usage books  before proceeding further in the discussion . &gt;&gt; Your response:  This sounds like a repelling message but I assure you, the feeling is mutual If I do need advice, it would be from someone more qualified.   You don&#39;t seem to get the point. I didn&#39;t say that I would guide you. I didn&#39;t say I wanted to guide you.  I asked you to refer to English usage books. Even native speakers quote from English usage books or some other English authorities, whereas you have very little confidence in such books.  You write what you think without any authoritative source.  I have never faced opposition from other non-native speakers when I...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693458Thu, 02 Apr 2009 05:17:44 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693458Yoong Liat19http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693458http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693458.xmlHi Avangi I agree with what you wrote. For the purpose of an exam, students need to know how to change sentences to the Passive Voice. However, the sentences may not sound natural. If you want to know more about transformations, I think you should refer to English usage books which will provide you with what you need to know.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693368Wed, 01 Apr 2009 23:15:49 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693368Avangi20http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693368http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693368.xmlMy position continues to be, if a student is assigned to transform a given active voice sentence to passive voice, as much of the sentence should be preserved as is possible, absent instructions to the contrary. The arbitrary swapping of infinitives and participles and the omission of agents for aesthetic reasons should be avoided. I don&#39;t think anyone denies that the passive voice is useful in eliminating the need to identify the agent. There seem to be a lot of exercises around on transformations. If someone with experience writing these examples could enlighten me, I&#39;d be grateful. - A.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693350Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:14:37 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693350Goodman21http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693350http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693350.xmlLiat, I appreacite your reling on your grammar book a lot which is good for you. My question to you is, are we communating in the same wave length? I understand the passive very well and thank you for the pointers. But somewhere we have a disconnect. My point was, some passive structure do not and should not include the agent. In the case of the subject sentence in discussion, &quot;by Bill&quot; is just that case. Are we clear now? &lt;&lt;A thief was seen to climb over the fence. (This sentence may appear wrong , but it is not.) Why do you think it appeared wrong? It&#39;s perfectly gramamtical, however. infinitive does sound odd Similarly, &quot;I saw a thief climbing over the fence&quot; becomes &quot; A thief was seen...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693210Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:37:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693210Yankee22http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693210http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693210.xml3. Sam saw the girl bitten by a snake. To me, this sentence could easily mean this: 3a. Sam saw the girl who had been bitten by a snake. In other words, first a snake bit the girl, and Sam saw her (the snakebite victim) afterwards. With this interpretation, an attempt to use the main verb (see) in the passive would have to be this: =&gt; The girl bitten by a snake was seen by Sam. Possible context: Perhaps Sam is one of several doctors working in an emergency room at a hospital, and someone wants to say that the snakebite patient was taken care of by Sam (i.e. not by one of the other doctors).http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693207Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:33:34 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693207Yoong Liat23http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693207http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693207.xmlHi Amy I appreciate your detailed explanation. I agree with the difference you pointed out. I think a lot of people don&#39;t know the difference.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693194Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:06:29 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693194Yankee24http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693194http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693194.xmlWe sometimes have to read the teacher&#39;s mind. We&#39;ve had examples lately in which student&#39;s were criticized by their teachers for not making their transformations reflect certain aspects of the original. The only difference between the originals in #1 and #2 is infinitive vs. participle. The problem I see is that these sorts of transformations frequently end up in sentences that sound quite unnatural -- even though they are grammatically correct. As I see it, if a teacher is going to give students these sorts of transformations, it is the teacher&#39;s responsibility to ensure (in advance!) that the transformations are not only possible but also natural and logical. As for the sentences about Bill seeing the girls swimming, I...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693159Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:27:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693159Yoong Liat25http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693159http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693159.xmlGoodman If you bother to refer to English usage books, you will find sentences like the one being discussed. To give you another example, many people are confused by &quot;I saw a thief climb over the fence.&quot;  Why is &#39;saw&#39; followed by &#39;climb&#39;? It becomes clearer why it is so if you change the sentence to the Passive Voice. A thief was seen to climb over the fence. (This sentence may appear wrong, but it is not.)   Similarly,  &quot;I saw a thief climbing over the fence&quot;  becomes  &quot; A thief was seen climbing over the fence&quot;  (the doer may be left out) when the sentence is in the Passive Voice.   Hence, I would like to repeat that what CB said is correct. If you accept &quot; Bill saw the girls swim...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693125Wed, 01 Apr 2009 08:13:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693125Goodman26http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/2/wdrxc/Post.htm#693125http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693125.xmlLiat, I find it amzazing that you still find this thread worthy of further discussion. 1. Bill saw the girls swim in the pool. OK This is completely gramamtical. Don&#39;t we agree? 2. The girls were seen to swim in the pool I would consdiered this sentence as the &quot;agentless passive&quot; and if &quot;by bill&quot; is written into the sentence as was in the oeiginal, then I think it sounded clumsy. If Bill needs to be identified as the person who saw the girl swim in the pool. Why don&#39;t we use the # 1 sentence which is more direct. You said: It is not logical to say the first sentence is correct but the second is grammatically wrong. It&#39;s not wrong, but clumsy as I said. Therefore, I agree with CB that...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#693048Wed, 01 Apr 2009 03:53:26 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:693048Yoong Liat27http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#693048http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-693048.xmlThe girls were seen to swim in the pool . Infinitive is incorrect. There&#39;s nothing wrong with the infinitive. CB 1. Bill saw the girls swim in the pool.   OK 2. The girls were seen  to swim  in the pool   It is not logical to say the first sentence is correct but the second is grammatically wrong. Therefore, I agree with CB that the second sentence is correct if there is nothing grammatically wrong with the first. However, I would write &quot;The girls were seen swimming in the pool .&quot;http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683455Thu, 05 Mar 2009 22:21:56 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:683455Avangi28http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683455http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-683455.xmlAre the sentences correct? 1. Bill saw the girls swim in the pool. --&gt; The girls were seen to swim in the pool by Bill. 2. Bill saw the girls swimming in the pool. --&gt; The girls were seen swimming in the pool by Bill. Hi, guys. We sometimes have to read the teacher&#39;s mind. We&#39;ve had examples lately in which student&#39;s were criticized by their teachers for not making their transformations reflect certain aspects of the original. The only difference between the originals in #1 and #2 is infinitive vs. participle. &quot;Bill knew the girls to swim in the pool&quot; is not one of them. Perhaps the lesson of the day was that certain active infinitives must be converted to participles in passive transformations. Who...http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683412Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:20:23 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:683412Goodman29http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683412http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-683412.xmlThanks Amy. Exactly my point. The context dictates the use of proper form.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683397Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:50:43 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:683397Yankee30http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683397http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-683397.xmlA more likely sort of passive sentence using the infinitive would be this: - The girls were known to swim in the pool after hours.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683381Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:06:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:683381Goodman31http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683381http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-683381.xmlThe girls were seen to swim in the pool . Infinitive is incorrect. There&#39;s nothing wrong with the infinitive. CB Hi CB, Please allow me to rephrase my previous comment. Grammatically, your are right. There is nothing wrong to use infinitive in this context. However, semantically I think using participle is a much smoother choice. To me, there are situational contexts where infinitive works better than participle semantically as well as grammatically and vise versa. Consider the following sentences, They are both passive structure. He was told several times not to break the rules…. , Infinitive, not breaking She was seen to swim in the pool….. I would much prefer using parhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683245Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:58:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:683245Cool Breeze32http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683245http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-683245.xmlThe girls were seen to swim in the pool . Infinitive is incorrect. There&#39;s nothing wrong with the infinitive. CBhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683240Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:31:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:683240Goodman33http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683240http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-683240.xml1. Bill saw the girls swim in the pool. ok --&gt; The girls were seen to swim in the pool . Infinitive is incorrect. is not necessary. If you must include Bill in the sentence, I&#39;d much prefer # 2 2. Bill saw the girls swimming in the pool. --&gt; The girls were seen swimming in the pool ok 3. Sam saw the girl bitten by a snake. ok --&gt; The girl was seen bitten by a snake by Bill . Odd! Try: Bill saw the girl bitten by a snake People saw the girl bitten by a snake. ok --&gt; The girl was seen bitten by a snake. okhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683173Thu, 05 Mar 2009 03:51:08 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:683173Avangi34http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htm#683173http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-683173.xmlThey&#39;re all okay, except the girl was bitten by Sam, not Bill. I agree that #3 is awkward, and your substitute example is easier on the ear, and certainly correct I&#39;d probably say, &quot;The girl was seen by Sam, being bitten by a snake.&quot; I don&#39;t know if that conforms to your rules. I don&#39;t know what you&#39;ve been taught, but I should think it&#39;s a tossup as to whether the seeing or the swimming comes first in numbers one and two - also whether to use the infinitive or the participle.http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htmThu, 05 Mar 2009 02:55:15 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:683147hsiaoyunh35http://www.englishforums.com/English/PassiveVoice/wdrxc/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-683147.xmlAre the sentences correct? 1. Bill saw the girls swim in the pool. --&gt; The girls were seen to swim in the pool by Bill. 2. Bill saw the girls swimming in the pool. --&gt; The girls were seen swimming in the pool by Bill. 3. Sam saw the girl bitten by a snake. --&gt; The girl was seen bitten by a snake by Bill. To me, the third passive voice sounds strange. But how about: People saw the girl bitten by a snake. --&gt; The girl was seen bitten by a snake. Does it work? Thanks for your time!!