ESL General English Grammar Questions

ESL General English Grammar Questionshttp://www.englishforums.com/English/EslGeneralEnglishGrammar-Questions/Forum12.htmAsk your questions on grammar and get your sentence checked. We answer lots of different types of general English grammar questions here. <font color=red>DO NOT post paragraphs and compositions here. Post them in our <a href="http://www.englishforums.com/English/EssayReportCompositionWriting/Forum9.htm"><b>Essay, Report and Composition Writing Forum</b></a>.</font>enXMOD (Build: 3614.32638)Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/3/wdzrp/Post.htm#684968Mon, 09 Mar 2009 23:45:26 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684968CalifJim0http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/3/wdzrp/Post.htm#684968http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684968.xmlWhat I'm confused about is, how to call it, something like "pure" past perfect with no any conditionals, phrases with "wish" etc. Have you followed that link I gave earlier? We were good friends. We had known each other for years. Could I say in this situation: We didn't know knew each other for years? Yes (as corrected), but note that the present viewpoint statement is: We are good friends. We have known each other for years. ("perfect of the present") The most logical way to transfer this into the past viewpoint is as follows: We were good friends. We had known each other for years. ("perfect of the past") Remember that the past perfect is a dependent tense. It connects with a past...Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684924Mon, 09 Mar 2009 21:26:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684924Avangi1http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684924http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684924.xmlWe were good friends. We had known each other for years. We were good friends. We KNEW each other for years. instead of "had known" in this situation. Yes. This conveys the same basic idea.Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684907Mon, 09 Mar 2009 20:30:43 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684907tmn1112http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684907http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684907.xmlSorry I made a mistake. The example was: We were good friends. We had known each other for years. I was meant to ask if I could say: We were good friends. We KNEW each other for years. instead of "had known" in this situation.Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684905Mon, 09 Mar 2009 20:24:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684905Avangi3http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684905http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684905.xmlThe simple past is sometimes used in those situations. Many thanks for the reply, Jim. I'll check some of the other posts.Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684896Mon, 09 Mar 2009 19:34:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684896Avangi4http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684896http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684896.xmlI'm confused about sentences like this: We were good friends. We had known each other for years. Could I say in this situation: We didn't know each other for years? I agree with you that this is "pure," a "classic," so to speak. Nevertheless, something has gone haywire (awry). The first sentence sets it up by using simple past tense. It doesn't specifically say that you are no longer friends, or that the person has died. But if we had wished to express that we are still friends (or still know each other), we'd have used the present simple, followed by the present perfect: "We are good friends. We have known each other for years." Therefore we assume the friendship has terminated....Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684849Mon, 09 Mar 2009 17:30:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684849tmn1115http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684849http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684849.xmlThanks for your numerous replies :) I really appreciate this. I just want to add that I know when to use the past perfect in sentences like: "If I hadn't done this, that wouldn't have happened" "I thought I had done this" "I wish I'd done this" etc. What I'm confused about is, how to call it, something like "pure" past perfect with no any conditionals, phrases with "wish" etc. I'm confused about sentences like this: We were good friends. We had known each other for years. Could I say in this situation: We didn't know each other for years?Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684847Mon, 09 Mar 2009 17:25:37 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684847CalifJim6http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684847http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684847.xmlWe typically explain the tense differences to students only in terms of time factors. Yes, and my post is an attempt to "correct" what I believe is a (partially) faulty approach to the subject!!! Do you think I'm out in left field on this one? No. The simple past is sometimes used in those situations. Nevertheless, there are tons of threads on this forum asking why the past perfect is used in just such situations, and I felt like adding those examples for students who are wondering about them -- not that I've given any rationale for why the past perfect is correct there, but that, by listing them here, I confirm that they are correct, which is often strongly doubted by learners. CJ P.S. I wouldn't call them modal....Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684713Mon, 09 Mar 2009 10:20:54 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684713Avangi7http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684713http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684713.xmlAnd to deny ever having heard or noticed or thought of something previous to being told about it. These are usually in the negative. -- Did you know that Lucy got married last Saturday? -- No! I hadn't heard that. (I didn't know that!) -- How about if we stand on these boxes so we can reach the top shelf? -- Good idea. I hadn't thought of that. (I didn't think of that!) -- Russ is wearing that stupid tie again -- the one with the fish on it. -- Really? I hadn't noticed . (I didn't notice that!) Hi, CJ. I'm struggling with a couple of these ideas. I guess we drifted from "when past perfect is required" to "when past perfect may be used." I expect sometimes the distinction is...Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684538Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:51:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684538CalifJim8http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684538http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684538.xmlSo in everyday speech past perfect isn't necess a ry? Wrong. The past perfect is sometimes required in everyday speech, and it is used in everyday speech. It's not used as often as other tenses, perhaps, but it is used. It's just that learners believe it is used more often than it really is. Is it only used in written and formal (for example novels, TV news etc.) english? No, as explained above. But when both simple past and past perfect are possible, the use of the past perfect may sound somewhat more formal to some speakers. Is it true that it's used more often in british english? No . That is not true. _________________ You need the past perfect in the if clause of this grammatical pattern: If I had seen that...Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684472Sun, 08 Mar 2009 19:34:58 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684472Avangi9http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/2/wdzrp/Post.htm#684472http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684472.xmlSo in everyday speech past perfect isn't necessery? I hope I didn't mislead you. There are plenty of very common everyday casual conversational expressions which use the past perfect. We pick them up from our friends as we go along, and we get to know what they mean. By "unnecessary," I meant there are very few actual situations that couldn't be described by using simple past instead of past perfect. I'm certainly not suggesting you shouldn't become expert in its use.Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684444Sun, 08 Mar 2009 18:28:57 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684444Grammar Geek10http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684444http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684444.xmlYes, there you do. The "for ages" makes it so. I haven't been there for ages. I hadn't been there for ages BEFORE our visit last night. But if you wanted to say just this: His room was tidy. He cleaned it before I came. His room was not tidy. He didn't clean it before I came OR He hadn't cleaned it before I came.Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684418Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:38:34 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684418tmn11111http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684418http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684418.xmlThanks for your replies. So in everyday speech past perfect isn't necessery? Is it only used in written and formal (for example novels, TV news etc.) english? Is it true that it's used more often in british english? Im Polish and in my native language past perfect or present perfect don't exist and that's why it's not easy to learn. I'm going to give one more example: Yesterday I came to my friend's house and his room was very untidy. He hadn't cleaned it up for ages. Do I have to use past perfect in this context?Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684406Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:17:51 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684406Grammar Geek12http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684406http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684406.xmlIf it is completely clear which came first, you can use simple past. If it is completely clear which came first AND when the two events are separated by a significant period of time, use simple past. Even when it's clear which came first, if the two events came very close to each other and you want to draw a clear line showing one was completely finished before the other began, then use the past perfect.Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684404Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:16:25 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684404Avangi13http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684404http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684404.xmlThat depends to some extent on what you mean by "necessary." There may be exercises in which you're asked to insert a phrase into an existing excerpt, and the best choice may be past perfect. But when you're starting from scratch, I don't think there's any scenario which you couldn't describe accurately without using the past perfect. Simple past will do the job.Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684389Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:47:08 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684389tmn11114http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684389http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684389.xmlThanks, but it's quite difficult to differentiate when using past perfect is neessary and when it's not.Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684387Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:34:21 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684387Yankee15http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684387http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684387.xmlHi Tmn The past perfect is completely unnecessary in your first sentence because there is absolutely no question whether "died" or "was born" happened first. If you use the past perfect when it isn't necessary, your sentences will often end up sounding odd. I would say you are only likely to find that sort of "had died before I was born" in a narrative context in which both "had died" and "was born" are being used as background information to "set the stage" for the narrative itself. To me, your second sentence "They (had) finished dinner before I came in" is a case where the past perfect is more likely to be used in any kind of context. Since the two activities...Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684385Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:31:20 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684385tmn11116http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684385http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684385.xmlThat's what I was asking about :) So it is possible to use past perfect in this example, isn't it? Does it mean we don't have to always use past perfect when one action happend before the other? For example: Is it correct: They finished dinner before I came in or I must say: They had finished dinner before I came in. Is using past perfect a free choice?Re: Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684377Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:55:26 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684377Avangi17http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htm#684377http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684377.xmlActually, "My grandfather died," is past simple ." Present perfect would be, "My grandfather has died ." We can't say, "My grandfather has died before I was born." We surely could say, "My grandfather had died before I was born," but that would be past perfect ; and we're saving that for next chapter!Past/present perfecthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htmSun, 08 Mar 2009 14:30:43 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:684367tmn11118http://www.englishforums.com/English/PastPresentPerfect/wdzrp/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-684367.xmlHi, I've been doing some exercises from the book "cambridge - english grammar in use" There is one exercise on past simple and present perfect: "My grandfather .. (die) before I was born. I .. (never/meet) him." Why is this example placed in "past simple and present perfect" unit? The answer is "died". Why isn't it "had died"? Thanks for any reply.