ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

Clive — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:50:14 GMT

Hi,

I haven`t been able to change this sentence : "I`m sorry I didn`t phone you earlier"

Jill apologized................................................

We are working with reported speech as you can see but this sentence has been imposible for me ! Ca n you help me ,please!!

Jill apologized by saying she was sorry that she hadn't phoned the person earlier.

If she was talking to you, the reporter, you could say 'me' instead of 'the person'.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

Anonymous — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:01:38 GMT

I haven`t been able to change this sentence : "I`m sorry I didn`t phone you earlier"

Jill apologized................................................

We are working with reported speech as you can see but this sentence has been imposible for me ! Ca n you help me ,please!!

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

Anonymous — Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:37:52 GMT

I think that the 2nd one is different as she hould read, and should have. It is in past tence and not past tence really.

Eladio wrote:
Hello, everyone in EnglishForums. Here I am again with some doubts, now related to reported speech but when in direct speech were used modal verbs and passive voice. Could you help me, please? Tell me if the followings reported speeches are correctly stated by me:

Direct Speech: I said: âShe could read the paper everydayâ.
Reported Speech: I said that she could have read the paper everyday.

Direct Speech: I said: âShe should read the paper everydayâ.
Reported Speech: I said that she should have read the paper everyday.
Reported Speech: I said that she should read the paper everyday. I think both ways are correct.

Direct Speech: I said: âShe would read the paper everydayâ.
Reported Speech: I said that she would have read the paper everyday.

Direct Speech: I said: âShe must read the paper everydayâ.
Reported Speech: I said that she had to read the paper everyday.

Direct Speech: I said: âShe might read the paper everydayâ.
Reported Speech: I said that she might have read the paper everyday.

Direct Speech: I said: âShe may read the paper everydayâ.
Reported Speech: I said that she may have read the paper everyday.

Direct Speech: I said: âThe paper was read everydayâ.
Reported Speech: I said that the paper was read everyday. I think that if we use passive voice, we donât have to change it in reported speech. Am I right?

And thank you in advance,
Eladio

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

just the truth — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:39:10 GMT

Well then, Paco, let's just leave it up to the CGEL, The Grammar Book, and numerous other language professionals, unless you'd like to find some sources that show they are mistaken.

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

paco2004 — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:29:50 GMT

I'm afraid, Paco, as good as you are, that you don't have the skills to determine which is which.

I'm sure you neither.

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

just the truth — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:20:52 GMT

Paco:

Sounds your books are telling merely that some native speakers don't do always the tense backshift in direct-to-indirect speech conversion. But I don't take it as that those books are saying ESL students always have to follow that kind of speech made by grammatically illiterate native speakers.

JTT:
That's an old falsehood, Paco but, I must admit, it is a common one. Let's do try to keep the facts straight though. It's apparent that you don't know what's grammatical or not grammatical. Without even checking or asking, you've made the completely unwarranted assumption that this applies to "illiterate native speakers".

That isn't the mark of someone who wants to find out the truth; that isn't the mark of a serious researcher; that isn't the mark of teacher of thirty years, Paco.

Eladio's question came directly because of what he's heard from native speakers on the street. Modern grammars take great pains to point out what's grammatical and what's not and I'm afraid, Paco, as good as you are, that you don't have the skills to determine which is which.

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

paco2004 — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:02:25 GMT

If we use passive voice, we don't have to change it in reported speech. Am I right?

JTT: That's right.

Sounds your books are telling merely that some native speakers don't do always the tense backshift in direct-to-indirect speech conversion. But I don't take it as that those books are saying ESL students always have to follow that kind of speech made by grammatically illiterate native speakers.

JTT, I think it's OK you make your assertion on the importance of learning out-of-grammar collocations native speakers are speaking everday. But if you like to do it, please do it in the Linguistics Discussion Forum. This forum is the place for EFL/ESL students, who are mostly coming to learn English grammar of the kind acceptable for pedagogic use.

paco

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

just the truth — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 05:28:55 GMT

CGEL:

Conversion to indirect reported speech not a matter of grammatical rule

There is a second respect in which we must beware of being misled by the traditonal account associating backshift with indirect reported speech. Converting into indirect reprted speech, however, is not a matter of applying rules of grammar that are specific to this purpose.

{JTT: emphasis NOT mine}

When I make an indirect report of [Jill's] speech, I purport to give the content of what she said - as opposed to quoting the actual wording,

This is how backshift is to be interpreted, not as converting one tense into another.

6.2.2 Obligatory vs optional backshifting

A backshifted preterite may be pragmatically equivalent to a present tense

Very often, the use of a backshifted preterite is optional.

Factors affecting choice between backshifted and non-backshifted versions

(a)

(b)

(c)

{JTT: the following specifically addresses Paco's concern about the passive though I must admit I'm lost as to why he thinks the passive should be treated in a different manner than other voices.}

(e) Simplification

In [some] case, the non-backshifted version may be prefered precisely for its greater simplicity.

Consider:

[32]

i She asked me where I was / had been born.

In cannot be interpreted as a backshifted preterite: it can be assumed that she did not ask, "Where are you born?"

=================================

The Grammar Book: An ESL/EFL Teacher's Course

The direct-to-indirect speech tense shift is the main piece of evidence cited to support the assignment of tense to modals. However, we demonstrate in Chapter 33, which deals with indirect speech, that the so-called rules of tesne shifting are NOT always followed by native speakers. This is especially true for modals; thus such evidence is somewaht weak.

==============

JTT: Paco, you should have listened to Eladio when he said,

"It was my feeling because I hear people talking in streets and I pay a lot of attention to them (to learn), and I hear many times they were talking about passive without changing it. Now I understand one more time, people talk as they wish and not always following correct grammar rules."

People who use language are the ones who determine its usage. Eladio only made one small slip up and that is understandable for everyone has long been subjected to the old lie that prescriptive grammar is somehow correct grammar. This is false false false.

People determine the rules of language. These old pedants who abandoned thinking in favor of rote memorization of prescriptions have, for too long, misled people on language. For ENLs it didn't and doesn't matter one iota, ENLs have never listened to these old canards.

For ESLs it matters a great deal. So when you, unwittingly I'm sure, pass on another language falsehood, it doesn't help Eladio and it doesn't help others who read the same thing.

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

paco2004 — Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:16:47 GMT

Hello Eladio

Thank you for your gracious advice. I'm sorry but I'm still inclined to believe JTT would tell us the book's title because he is still now saying he says Just The Truth.Otherwise I would take JTT rather as Joking Terrible Teacher.

paco

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

Eladio — Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:31:20 GMT

Paco:
I have already answered this question to you. I wrote here:

Paco, there is not any English Grammar book, or other book from which I've taken my feeling that we don't have to change the passive when we're using reported speech. I just believed that, and in that way I always post this question here. It was my feeling because I hear people talking in streets and I pay a lot of attention to them (to learn), and I hear many times they were talking about passive without changing it. Now I understand one more time, people talk as they wish and not always following correct grammar rules.

Eladio

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

paco2004 — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:41:12 GMT

Hello JTT

Paco
I was wondering if you could tell me the titles, the authors, and the publishers of the grammar books telling that we need not change the tense in the case the reported subordinate clause is in passive voice. Thank you in advance.

JTT
Be glad to Paco. Could you remind me to do so around the 13th of April. I'm on holidays now. I've sent myself a reminder email.

It's a bit too late but could you tell me here the titles, the authors, and the publishers of the grammar books I have asked you here.

paco

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

paco2004 — Sun, 03 Apr 2005 00:10:37 GMT

Hi Eladio

Sounds you got the passive/report matter. Congratulation!

paco

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

Eladio — Sat, 02 Apr 2005 23:19:57 GMT

Paco:
Thank for your answers. The same to JTT. I promise not more questions about passive and reported speech. Now I think I get it. Paco, there is not any English Grammar book, or other book from which I've taken my feeling that we don't have to change the passive when we're using reported speech. I just believed that, and in that way I always post this question here. It was my feeling because I hear people talking in streets and I pay a lot of attention to them (to learn), and I hear many times they were talking about passive without changing it. Now I understand one more time, people talk as they wish and not always following correct grammar rules. So, allow me, another time in the future, ask you, wise people, about my doubts in English, not always related to books.
"The End" of this picture about passive and reported speech. Thank all of you!!
Eladio

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

just the truth — Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:35:26 GMT

True, Paco but even I don't haul sources around on holidays.

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

paco2004 — Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:18:46 GMT

JTT

I see. I believe you because you posted on March 31, not on April 1.

paco