http://www.englishforums.com/English/EslGeneralEnglishGrammar-Questions/Forum12.htmAsk your questions on grammar and get your sentence checked. We answer lots of different types of general English grammar questions here. <font color=red>DO NOT post paragraphs and compositions here. Post them in our <a href="http://www.englishforums.com/English/EssayReportCompositionWriting/Forum9.htm"><b>Essay, Report and Composition Writing Forum</b></a>.</font>enXMOD (Build: 3607.32596)http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#883939Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:53:53 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:883939Anonymous0http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#883939http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-883939.xmlIt is correct either way, but a writer should always strive to be as clear as possible to his/her audience. I usually include it. High School English teacherhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#835816Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:14:57 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:835816Anonymous1http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#835816http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-835816.xmlIn your given example, &#39;comma&#39; is not needed before &#39;and&#39;. Thus the answer is-sales, customer support and quality. However, in some cases &#39;comma&#39; is used before &#39;and&#39;. Observe the following sentences- 1. She went to the market and bought some fruits. 2. She went to the market, bought some fruits, and went out on a picnic with her friends. Well, my examples are not upto the mark. But the main difference is that the two parts of the 1st sentence are related to each other- &#39;going to the market&#39; and &#39; buying things&#39;. But in the 2nd sentence &#39;and&#39; joins two parts that are not related to each other, I mean one can&#39;t imagine &#39;shopping&#39; and &#39;picnic&#39;...http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#830232Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:27:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:830232Grammar Geek2http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#830232http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-830232.xml&#39;And&#39; is a conjunction, if you are using a comma to seperate something why use &#39;and&#39; and viceversa. If you have two independent clauses (two complete sentences), you cannot join them simply with a comma. If you join them with &quot;and&quot; the prescriptivists insist you use a comma before the word and. Others say if the two independent clauses are short enough, you can omit the comma and just use &quot;and.&quot; They work together - you cannot substitute one for the other.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#829648Wed, 22 Jul 2009 07:54:31 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:829648Anonymous3http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#829648http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-829648.xml&#39;And&#39; is a conjunction, if you are using a comma to seperate something why use &#39;and&#39; and viceversa.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#801372Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:00:47 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:801372Anonymous4http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#801372http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-801372.xmlYes it is, absolutely. That is one thing that I remember from school because in my mother language (German) this is different.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#570647Thu, 21 May 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:570647Anonymous5http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#570647http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-570647.xmlYes, otherwise Customer Support and Quality would be one department!http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#470262Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:470262Anonymous6http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#470262http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-470262.xmlI recently saw this on another site, and it does seem that journalists started to remove that comma to save newspaper space although I had learned to separate each entity with a comma and that is what I do unless there is a relationship there between the final two items listed. Another point from this other site was that when you have a legal document that states: "I leave my estate to be divided amongst Joe, Mary, Alice and John", legally Joe would get 1/3, Mary would get 1/3, and Alice and John would split the final 1/3. If it was written WITH a comma there (...Joe, Mary, Alice, and John), each person listed would receive 25%. I suppose most of it matters if you are a journalist or an attorney! LOL... Also, the computer...http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#470247Thu, 21 May 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:470247Clive7http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/4/cqc/Post.htm#470247http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-470247.xmlHi Anonymous, Thank you for your comments. I envy your sense of certainty. Best wishes, Clivehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#470050Thu, 21 May 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:470050Anonymous8http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#470050http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-470050.xmlTharabg, According to the two English reference manuals I own, proper punctuation places the comma before the "and" in a series. Journalists often leave out commas before “and” in a series; however, this practice originally started to save space in newspapers. May I suggest that you invest in a writing manual? I quoted McKernan because two-thirds of the individuals that responded to your inquiry are wrong. “ 22.2 (b) To separate items in a series, a comma is used Sluggo ordered radishes, carrots, garlic, and coffee for breakfast. The team swam past the dock, around the lake, and up the creek. The officer asked Eliott where he lived, what he did for a living, why he was out so late, and how he had managed to fall...http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#391265Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:391265Grammar Geek9http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#391265http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-391265.xmlHello Anon. Please see the post above yours, which mentions the serial (sometimes called Oxford) comma. It is optional, but consistency is key. It's not correct to say that American English always puts it there - see the AP Stylebook, for example.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#391191Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:391191Anonymous10http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#391191http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-391191.xmlActually in American English comma is put against the last items. e.g. sales, customer support, and quality. Britishers dont put the comma.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#338280Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:338280Shreksbro11http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#338280http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-338280.xmlYou are talking about a serial comma. My understanding is that it is entirely optional, but that it should be used whenever it may help in the parsing of a sentence. In your example, it is conceivable that your list items are actually 'sales, customer support and customer quality'. I would use a comma as it eliminates the potential for confusion.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#338038Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:338038Anonymous12http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#338038http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-338038.xmlBeing an English teacher in a foriegn country, I'm confronted by this question daily. It is a matter of style in North America and you may choose to use either one, but you should be consistant throughout the document or letter you are writing. In Britain they tend never to put a comma before 'and.' When it comes to connecting sentences with 'and' that is a completely different question.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#325353Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:325353Grammar Geek13http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#325353http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-325353.xmlIf the purpose of your question is to ask whether you need a comma in that sentence, Anon, the answer is "no."http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#325307Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:325307Anonymous14http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#325307http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-325307.xmlGuest wrote: is the usage of comma before the word 'and' correct in this sentence- "(e.g. sales, customer support, and quality)." The purpose of this letter is to introduce myself and to inform you of our valuable services.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#264400Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:264400Anonymous15http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#264400http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-264400.xmlIn academic writing, a comma is neccessary before and in a series. It is called an "Oxford Comma". You will see journalists in newspaper not use the comma before the and, but again if you are going to write and want to show a more academic approach, the comma before the and is neccessary.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#118334Thu, 21 May 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:118334Nyarlathotep16http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/3/cqc/Post.htm#118334http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-118334.xmlI agree with Jules. I always fully split up lists with commas; otherwise, you give the impression that the last item is, in someway, related to the penultimate item! -Nyarlathotephttp://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#27169Thu, 21 May 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:27169Guest17http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#27169http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-27169.xmlThink of non defining part of the sentence. We've just arrived, after long trip, and we are very tired.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#17879Thu, 21 May 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:17879Dima18http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#17879http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-17879.xmlYes it's correct. commas are put after items in a series.e.g:I like apples,oranges,and pears.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1097Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:1097Algy19http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1097http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-1097.xmlThe use of a comma before 'and' is rather old fashioned and known, I think, as the 'Oxford Comma'. It can be found in older text books and older editions of novels etc. Generally, the trend is to use punctuation as sparingly as possible and not to use a comma before 'and'. However, there are no hard and fast rules so if you want to use a comma do - it might just seem quaint!http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1067Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:1067hitchhiker20http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1067http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-1067.xmlGlad,to,help.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1031Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:1031mainframe21http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1031http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-1031.xmlhehehehe! Thanks a lot, guys. So, much, for, the, commas!http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1027Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:1027hitchhiker22http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1027http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-1027.xmlHehe, you're just evil! (lol!) Computer peripherals can include printers, tape drives, disk drives, consoles, mice and keyboards. You need to remove an 'and' from the end.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1025Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:1025mainframe23http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1025http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-1025.xmlNice to learn from you people! Now as my final question on this topic, would you consider this sentence also acceptable? Computer peripherals can include printers, tape drives, disk drives, consoles, and mice and keyboards.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1020Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:1020hitchhiker24http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1020http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-1020.xmlMainframe - That's a good idea, but the problem is tape drives and disk drives will have to be seperated due to the repetition of 'and' between the drives. Plus they are in different categories anyway, as a tape drive is 'backup storage'. Computer peripherals can include printers, mice and keyboards , tape drives, disk drives and consoles. mice and keyboards are the only 2 grouped together.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1017Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:1017mainframe25http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/2/cqc/Post.htm#1017http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-1017.xmlMy intention is to list all the peripherals, while putting similar items into groups. "Mice" and keyboards belong to the same input device class. Tape drives and disk drives belong to the same input/output device class. Printers have a separate output class. Consoles belong to another class of output device.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#975Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:975Pia26http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#975http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-975.xmlJust to further the debate *grin* ...... Michael Swan in Pratical English Usage says this on the use of commas .... "Commas are used to separate items in series or list, but they are often not used between the last two items. 'i'd like to visit Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Austria and Yugoslavia'. if the last two items are long, we are more likely to use commas. 'I spent yeterday playing cricket, drinking beer, and talking about the meaning of life'." he didn't say never but "often". so we're ALL right !!!!! possibly!http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#974Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:974Jules27http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#974http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-974.xmlIf I want a sentence clear of any doubt then it has to be number 1 in your examples. In your examples you have cleverly chosen items that are linked, e.g. Tape and Disk Drives, along with other references around the same topic. In your second example we see no seperation between "Tape, Disk Drive, and Consoles. Are they all related? If it is highly important to provide seperation between items, example 1 is the only way you can do this, hence why it is the best format to use.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#955Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:955hitchhiker28http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#955http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-955.xmlI would write it: Computer peripherals can include printers, mice and keyboards, tape drives, disk drives and consoles. -I chose 'can' over 'may' but that's just my feeling on it. -Mouse should be mice -tape drives, disk drives (to avoid 'ands') It is a tough sentence! As Carla pointed out earlier, it's U.S to put a comma after the final and .http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#953Thu, 21 May 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:953mainframe29http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#953http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-953.xmlI'm also troubled when choosing between these sentences: 1. Computer peripherals may include printers, mouse and keyboards, tape and disk drives, and consoles. 2. Computer peripherals may include printers, mouse and keyboards, tape and disk drives and consoles.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#933Thu, 21 May 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:933hitchhiker30http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#933http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-933.xml1 for, 2 against. Chris, what's your take on this?http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#920Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:920Jules31http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#920http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-920.xmlI would always use a COMMA before AND unless the last 2 items are related. For example, 1, 2, 3 and 4, would suggest 3 and 4 are coupled. 1, 2, 3, and 4 provides an absolute definition suggesting that the 3 and the 4 are seperate entities, which they are!http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#919Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:919Pia32http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#919http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-919.xmlyep hitch. no use for comma before an 'and'.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#858Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:858hitchhiker33http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htm#858http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-858.xmlWhile there are many styles of punctuation in English, I would opt to correct this sentence: ...sales, customer support and quality.http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htmWed, 21 Jan 2009 20:46:33 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:852Guest34http://www.englishforums.com/English/UsageCommaGuestTharabg/cqc/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-852.xmlis the usage of comma before the word 'and' correct in this sentence- "(e.g. sales, customer support, and quality)."