English Audio: Speech and Pronunciation

Re: 'same-way' question tag

CalifJim — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:21:24 GMT

I had a feeling the anecdote was not accurate. Thanks for the added information!

Re: 'same-way' question tag

Teo — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:54:39 GMT

CalifJim
It is said that the Mongolians used to wear pigtails, while the Chinese practiced footbinding.
When the two cultures eventually came together, you might think that, through the mixing of ideas, both cultures would give up these strange practices. But in fact the Mongolians started footbinding, and the Chinese began to wear pigtails.

It was the Manchus, not the Mongolians, that used to wear pigtails.

When the Manchus conquered the Chinese, it was the Manchus, not the Mongolians, who started footbinding,

The Chinese were forced to wear pigtails by the Manchu government.

Re: 'same-way' question tag

CalifJim — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 21:17:10 GMT

It is said that the Mongolians used to wear pigtails, while the Chinese practiced footbinding.
When the two cultures eventually came together, you might think that, through the mixing of ideas, both cultures would give up these strange practices. But in fact the Mongolians started footbinding, and the Chinese began to wear pigtails.

I always think of this anecdote (whether it's true or not) as a cautionary tale in our era of globalization.

CJ

Re: 'same-way' question tag

Kooyeen — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:03:59 GMT

Wow, I didn't know there were those kinds of "helpers" in the US and the UK too. You must have imported them from Italy.

Re: 'same-way' question tag

CalifJim — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:51:20 GMT

Warning: off-topic.

incompetent helpdesk operatives ... incapable of comprehending a sentence with more than one clause

Ah, globalization! You guys across the pond must be outsourcing to the same groups that we Yanks are. At least the helpdesk symptoms you describe are the same as what we experience in the U.S.

When the phone lines were down from our last storm, I called the repair service. The "helper" suggested that I should get the (more expensive) high-speed computer connection! (Oh, yes, that'll help a lot, I thought. Don't know why I hadn't thought of it myself.) I explained that what I had was a no-speed connection, but that message didn't get through either. She insisted that I should switch to the high-speed option because the lower-speed rates were going up anyway, and why would I want to pay more for less? (And it all turned out to be a lie anyway; the rates are still the same.) Long story short, the lines were eventually repaired, with minimum thanks to the help desk.

CJ

Re: 'same-way' question tag

Teo — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:52:30 GMT

A: She wouldn't attend the weekly assembly.

B: Oh, she wouldn't, wouldn't she?

(Quoted from Treasury of English Grammar, by Liu Yi)

Oh, he isn't ready, isn't he? [rarely used]

(Quoted from English Q & A, by Prof. Wu Bingzhong)

So you don't like my cooking, don't you?

So you won't speak to me, won't you?

So he wouldn't come, wouldn't he?

(Quoted from Ho's Complete English Grammar, by Ho Limin)

Same-way question tags

Although the basic structure of tag questions is positive-negative or negative-positive, it is sometime possible to use a positive-positive or negative-negative structure. We use same-way question tags to express interest, surprise, anger etc, and not to make real questions.

So you're having a baby, are you? That's wonderful!
She wants to marry him, does she? Some chance!
So you think that's amusing, do you? Think again.

Negative-negative tag questions usually sound rather hostile:

So you don't like my looks, don't you?

http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-questions-tag.htm

Re: 'same-way' question tag

MrPedantic — Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:52:41 GMT

Hello Teo

It may simply be because we rarely have the chance to use some of these tags. For instance, I have no memory at all of using the "hostile" positive-positive version (e.g. "Oh, you do, do you?"), because my humdrum days offer very little opportunity for hostility towards anyone except the incompetent helpdesk operatives at my service provider; and since they're incapable of comprehending a sentence with more than one clause, there wouldn't be any point in throwing a few odd tags at them.

So perhaps we have to think of some of these forms as analogous to the red-backed shrike or the great northern diver: validly present on the British list, but rarely if ever sighted by 96% of natives.

MrP

Re: 'same-way' question tag

Teo — Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:04:55 GMT

%He isn't ill, isn't he?

The above sentence is quoted from The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, Cambridge University Press 2002. The symbol % indicates the status of the following example: He hadn't many friends. [grammatical in some dialect(s) only]

According to the second edition of Practical English Usage, negative-negative tag questions are only possible in British English.

Since modern British English is currently being quite strongly influenced by American English, the negative-negative question tag is probably becoming obsolete.

Re: 'same-way' question tag

MrPedantic — Mon, 13 Feb 2006 01:59:14 GMT

Is a negative-negative tag possible in a rhetorical question; or am I just tired and confused? e.g. one MI5 officer to another:

1. I see. So he won't talk, won't he. Well, we'll soon see about that... <fiendish cackle>

MrP

Re: 'same-way' question tag

Teo — Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:16:40 GMT

I am not surprised that many native speakers object to negative-negative question tags for I know they are considered substandard by American speakers and only some British grammarians such as Michael Swan and Rodney Huddleston have found a few instances of them being used. Not all native speakers agree about how we should say some things. Even commonly used idioms and expressions vary tremendously from one area to another. Please do not hastily conclude that negative-negative question tags are stupid. I know their limited acceptability and I myself don't use them. My original question was about the intonation of 'same-way' question tags. I thought they should be used with a falling intonation, because they are not asking for information - and not even asking for confirmation of information. They are merely making a statement (or statements). Now I know that positive-positive tags can also be used with a rising intonation and sound sarcastically suspicious.

Re: 'same-way' question tag

nona the brit — Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:21:16 GMT

Oh for goodness sake Teo, if you really insist on using two negatives like this, please go ahead, it's entirely up to you. We are not here to set the rules for you.

Pulling odd sentences out of context though doesn't really prove your point as one of your previous examples was followed by the reference book's statement that this is not actually used. All of us native speakers are saying, no, they are not used. I can - hand on heart - state that I have never heard them being used. If I did hear it, I would assume it was a non-native speaker error. But if you love them so much that you still wish to use them, go ahead. It's up to you. You will sound pretty stupid but it's your choice entirely.

Re: 'same-way' question tag

Teo — Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:12:37 GMT

He isn't ill, isn't he?

Page 892, The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, Cambridge University Press 2002, Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K. Pullum in collaboration with Bauer, Birner, Collins, Denison, Lee, Mittwoch, Nunberg, Palmer, Payne, Peterson, Stirling, Ward.

Re: same way question tag

Mister Micawber — Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:32:54 GMT

Did you read the page you referenced, Teo? It says:

"Logically we should expect an equivalent sixth type in which both question and tag are negative.... This type, however, has not been clearly attested in actual use."

Re: same way question tag

Teo — Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:20:29 GMT

So he doesn't like his job, doesn't he?

Page 813, A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, Longman Group Limited 1985

Written by Randolf Quirk, Sidney Greenbaum, Geoffrey Leech, Jan Svartvik

Index by David Crystal

Re: same way question tag

Mister Micawber — Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:49:03 GMT

It looks like the folks at English Club just plagiarized Swan and changed a couple of words. The score is still 3-0 against the form here at English Forums, Teo. Feel free to try other sites.