English Audio: Speech and Pronunciation

Re: When I have trouble...

Kooyeen — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:38:00 GMT

Hi,
well, it's not that simple. For example, MW gives three possible pronunciations for "essay", but I guess only one of those is really common, and I'm afraid it's the last one they list. So, as you can see, it's not so simple. There are a lot of words like that... listed with a lot of possible pronunciations. Compare is cump-air. But comparable could be comp-air-uh-bul or com-puh-ruh-bul. Heh

That channel is a TV, not a radio. You can watch it online, they broadcast a lot of interesting stuff taken from important universities, like lectures, etc.
Check it out.
http://www.researchchannel.org/

Re: When I have trouble...

Hummingbird — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:40:07 GMT

{{Anyway, my problem was not about sounding American or anything, it was just about those words that are supposed to have more than one pronounciation, according to the dictionaries. I can't solve this problem completely though, even if I listened to the radio all day long.}}

-Keyoon

you don't have a problem , you're just looking for one ,,lol

{{A little example: take the word "with". It can be pronounced too ways, th as in think, or th as in there. Which one do I have to choose?}}

how hard can it be to solve this? just choose the one you like more.

now about that radio station "research channel'' ,, where can I hear it?

thank you

Re: When I have trouble...

Kooyeen — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:24:07 GMT

Hi everyone...

Anonymous, I understand that for most learners this would be too much... as long as you are understood, you're fine. But there are several different kinds of learners. I think we were talking about advanced learners who are interested in understanding English very well, almost like a native speaker (so you need to know about accents, slang, different registers, culture and society, etc.). So finding a model to imitate or comparing different native models is something for more advanced learners who are really interested in English, not for people who are only going to use English for business and with non-native speakers, for example.

Hey Hummingbird,
yes, listening to the radio is a good way to train our ear and learn vocabulary... I know I should listen to it more often... it's just sometimes I find it a little bit boring, LOL. But I know a few talk shows that are not boring...

Anyway, my problem was not about sounding American or anything, it was just about those words that are supposed to have more than one pronounciation, according to the dictionaries. I can't solve this problem completely though, even if I listened to the radio all day long. A little example: take the word "with". It can be pronounced too ways, th as in think, or th as in there. Which one do I have to choose? I used to say it with th as in there, always. Then I realized, listening to the radio, that most people say th as in think. So I changed my pronunciation and now I say it that way. In that case, listening was helpful. That word, "with" is very common, and you can hear it on the radio. But take "basil". My dictionaries list several possible pronunciations. And what do I have to do? I don't think you're going to hear "basil" much on the radio or on TV. Unless you look for a program about food... but I don't care about those programs, lol, I'm not going to look for them just to hear "basil". That was another little example... but what about "hydrocarbon", "pythagorean", etc.? I'm definitely not going to hear them... Whatever, lol.

Hummingbird wrote:
Good luck to you

Thanks!

PS: I just remembered that there's a channel (free, and online) where I might hear a lot of those weird words... The Research Channel!

Re: When I have trouble...

Hummingbird — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 00:01:48 GMT

Hi guys!! Koyeen, CJ and verybody else

So Kooyeen

,, looks like both of are trying very hard to aim the very goal, that very dream and that is to sound just like American English Native Speakers.

Well,, I think I did it, in fact ,everyone that hears me speaking English thinks I'm an American,, lol

that's because ever since I can't remember, me and the Radio have been and still ''inseparable'' friends.

Good luck to you Keeyoon.

Re: When I have trouble...

Anonymous — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:45:36 GMT

Hi,

So what would you advise Kooyeen with regard to the pronunciation of the words he asked about?

As far as specific lexical items are concerned, I would advise him to look them up in an American dictionary. More generally, I would suggest he spend time training his ear in order to recognise all the distinct sounds of the American accent he is aiming at (if he really wants to sound American, then he needs a very specific model). He would need to learn how to produce all the linguistically relevant sounds of this accent and some of their most important allophonic variants (e.g. t-voicing). He should then move on to practise American stress, intonation, and rhythm. Once all these aspects of American pronunciation are mastered, I would start thinking about subtler differences such as differences between male and female speakers of the language.

Re: When I have trouble...

CalifJim — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:34:22 GMT

I certainly see your point, but I hope you see mine, too.

I think I do see your point. So what would you advise Kooyeen with regard to the pronunciation of the words he asked about? (He's particularly interested in acquiring an authentic American accent.)

CJ

Re: When I have trouble...

Anonymous — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:40:39 GMT

Hi,

I certainly see your point, but I hope you see mine, too. If a language learner manages the phonology of the target-langauge to such an extent that speech is intelligible, then there is nothing that needs to be changed about the learner's speech production unless the learner himself or herself wants to. I think a 17-year-old Italian boy who learns his English from an American girl will be understood by English speakers, and he may not even end up sounding that strange either.

Re: When I have trouble...

CalifJim — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:23:04 GMT

I know of a case where a woman from Columbia studied at a university in Georgia.
At the end of her years in the U.S. she went back to her native country, and, to the dismay of her relatives, she spoke English with a Southern accent, unlike any of her siblings who had been educated at northern universities in the U.S. (I don't think it was a matter of any effort to pick up any 'micro-pronunciation'. It just happened through imitation.)
_____________

While travelling in Italy, I ran across a shop-keeper who spoke extremely fluent English, with a Cockney accent and vocabulary. (Again, I don't think she tried to pick up a certain 'micro-pronunciation'. It just happened through imitation.)
_____________

I have a male friend who learned French exclusively from women teachers.
Later, travelling in France, when he spoke French to native speakers, they commented that he spoke somewhat like a woman. It was very embarrassing for him. The source of the problem seems obvious to me.
_____________

It's anecdotes like these that led me to give the advice I did.

CJ

Re: When I have trouble...

Anonymous — Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:22:29 GMT

Hi,

For most learners of English, the goal is to learn to speak English clearly i.e. in such a way that one will be understood by all kinds of speakers of the language. High acceptability and native-like performance is rarely needed. I personally think you should learn your English from someone whose accent you like. Rare indeed are learners who acquire the phonetic ability to make the distinctions between 'micro-pronunciations'.

Re: When I have trouble...

CalifJim — Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:04:13 GMT

Surely male and female speakers of English speak the same language.

Surely they do -- in the most obvious way. Nevertheless, if we take 'language' to mean something much more detailed, I don't think their 'language' is the same at all. Everything from vocabulary choice to micro-pronunciation and tone of voice is different, not to mention choice of what to speak about at all. Most men are not going to coo and gurgle in a high-pitched voice over a baby or a puppy, "Ooooo, what a precious little cutie!" And they probably won't talk much about the exact shade of periwinkle or puce needed to match the drapes to the carpet. (I must look up puce one of these days.) And most women are not going to use some of the strong swear words that men do, or use much of the vocabulary of sports or that of auto mechanics, etc. I may be overdoing the stereotypes to prove a point, but it is purely in this sense that I claim men and women do not "speak the same language". Following a similar line of argumentation, young people and old people do not speak the same language, and people with very high incomes do not speak the language of the very poor. And so on, for all social groups.

CJ

Re: When I have trouble...

Kooyeen — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:36:17 GMT

Hi Anon,
what Jim said makes a lot of sense, and we discussed it a little in another thread, I think.
The point was that teaching completely descriptively is impossible. The teacher would have to say: Mr X says this, Mr Y says that, and Mr Z says another thing. Now learn what they say and then decide what to do by yourself.
Every time a teacher gives advice or suggest something, they're being at least a little bit prescriptive.
So if you want a good teacher, you need a teacher who "prescribes" the most appropriate English for you.

Now, suppose I'm 17. The better you know English, the more it should sound like English spoken by native speakers (this should be true for every language). How can I be as similar to a native as possible? If am learning American English and I imagine I am a native speaker, I should imagine I am a 17-year-old American guy. If I found an American teenager to imitate, I would learn how to speak like my imaginary native clone.

So, why would a ESL student who is 17, listen to punk rock and don't care much about school and rules in society... why would he want to have a teacher who is 50, listen to classical music, and is a literature professor? Learning English from a punk like him is probably the best way to learn the best kind of English for him.

And as for females... sometimes girls talk a little differently. Vocabulary might be different, tipical topics in conversations are definitely different, and sometimes intonation might vary (example: uprising intonation).

Re: When I have trouble...

Anonymous — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:35:12 GMT

Hi,

CalifJim appears to have written, "It almost has to be some native speaker you come in contact with daily, preferably someone of the same sex and age as you, that is, as much like you as possible!"

Why do you suggest non-native speakers learning English imitate a native speaker the same sex as themselves, Calif? Surely male and female speakers of English speak the same language.

Re: When I have trouble...

Kooyeen — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:35:07 GMT

Hmm...
Too many possible pronunciations, too many things to remember... I think I'd better pick a pronunciation, almost at random, and keep using that until someone tells me I sound odd...

Thanks, I'll see what I can do...

Re: When I have trouble...

CalifJim — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:15:42 GMT

I wonder if the following T beginning a stressed syllable is the reason.
Nobody's going to notice if you use IX or EX on these. They'll be listening to the meaning, not the pronunciation.

CJ

Re: When I have trouble...

Kooyeen — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:29:15 GMT

Aaaargh! Well, I often make mistakes... sometimes because I think of something while I'm actually writing someting else (ex: "things", but I think of "this", etc.). Often because my English is not good yet. What's interesting is that I might be likely to write "people seems", but I don't think I might write "people is" instead of "people are". I guess it's just a question of S's then.

Anyway...
MW-online only lists executable. I am now using MW to check the pronunciation. You said it looks more reliable... it seems more reliable to me too (for example, it's the only dictionary that shows the first vowel in numerical as a reduced OO sound).
And that reminds me of a question: MW is the only one that says external and exterior with the first EX as in SEX. All the other dictionaries use an IX like in FIX. Is MW right? Of all the most common words that start with EX, MW pronounces only external and exterior with EX, all the others with IX. Looks like those two words are kind of like exceptions...