Controversial Subjects

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:54:51 GMT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide#Recent_history_.E2.80.94_timeline

----Any one can go on wikipedia and change it...

Wikipedia is the worst source to use...

so back it up with a proper source and it will be more credible

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:33:11 GMT

The Armenian question is more or less a question beginning in the start of last century.

But i am still not sure if it was a real genocide. Have some questions in regard to this tragedy.

1- How many armenians were killed directly by the ottoman forces directly? We know that the kurds in that region had problem for many centuries with Armenians in that region. The Armenians were not allowed to make military service at all. But Kurds had to go to millitary and a few of them turned back of wars. With this Armanian got more rich and powerfull in time. They bought or take over many of the kurds property. The kurds got poorer and poorer with time. With the start of I World War Armenians claim for independent country got clearer. Espacially they formed amny parties and associations for that. They also have started attacking the remaining ottoman troops behinde the front against Russia. Talat Pasha who was the main person who decided to depart Armenians from eastern anatolia to Syria. Here starts the tragedy. Thousands of Armenians is beeen killed directly by the military forces of Ottoman. But much muhc more is been kiilled and sold like a slve by the kurdish chetes. One the sold womans is the grandmother of my mother. She was sold or given to the grandfather of my mother. Armenians who could not find someone would be killed and were killed. The lucky Armanins were those who could be departed. As to Asala's first claim the death of Armains were 500 thousand. But in time to make the tragedy more worth the amount increased first to 1 million then to 1,5 million.

2- How many turcs or kurds is been killed by Armenians? Esspecially in areas close to Russianborder where Armenians were living in huge amount a lot of turkish and kurdish villages were attacked by Armanians bandit and chetes. The story in a village close Kars is one of the dramatic ones. Nearly all men were at front. Only children, women and very old people lived there. All of them were put into the mosque and burned. Other villages and cities taken by force by Armanian troops and chetes faced similar tragedies. Its been claimed that hundred thousand were killed by armenian chetes.

3- If this is a genocide how could so many Armaninas remain after it? Esspecially in Istanbul (capital of Ottoman) only some of the Arminans were jailed or departed. many of them could stay there.

As a turc i am sorry for the tragedy we lived in the past. We still have idiots - be sure they are really in a very very minority- who dislikes Armenians. I know from some Armainan friends in Istanbul that we share a lot of culture. Like we have a lot of folk music in both langugaes. If you are an Armenian who may know the song "Sari Gelin".

Take care do not live your whole life in hate and burning for revenge against a nation.

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:37:53 GMT

Though there were many Armenians fighting in the Ottoman armies against the enemy or serving in the rear ranks during the World War I, a considerable number had sided with the foes on the battlefronts and launched massacres against the population without distinction of women, children and the aged. Their toll was hundreds of thousands of Moslems and ruin in Eastern Anatolia.

The measures adopted by the Ottoman Empire to stop this violence were presented to the rest of the world under a completely different light and the Armenians, misguided by the promises and instigation of the Western Powers started to undermine the country where they had led a privileged life more than a thousand years.

The Hinchak, Tashnak, Toward Armenia, Young Armenians, Union and Salvation, Ramgavar, Paramilitaries, Black Cross societies and Hinchak Revolutionary Committee, which were established out of Anatolia, formed organisations urging the people for an armed revolt. These activities were the bloody uprisings that cost thousands of Turkish and Armenian lives.

During World War I, the Ottoman Empire was fighting against Russian armies in Eastern Anatolia, where the Armenian revolt was at its peak; and also against Armenian forces which supported the Russians. On the other hand, behind the lines it had to continue to fight against Armenian guerrillas that were burning Turkish villages and towns and attacking military convoys and reinforcements. In spite of this violence, the Ottoman Empire tried to solve the Armenian problem for months by taking local measures. Meanwhile, an operation was made against the Armenian guerillas and 2345 rebels were arrested for high treason. When it became evident that the Armenian community was also in rebellion against the state, the Ottoman Empire proceeded with the last resort of replacing only those Armenians in the region who actively participated in the rebellion. With this measure, the Ottoman Empire also intended to save the lives of the Armenians who were living in a medium of civil war because Turks started to counter-attack the Armenians who had performed bloody atrocities against Turkish communities.

Today, Armenia and some states using Armenians for their economic and political benefits have launched a massive propaganda campaign to present the replacement decision and the 24 April arrests as genocide to the world public opinion.

Just to know history "kk"

Re: Armenian Genocide

Aleen — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:34:58 GMT

YC said that armenians were killed because tehy were christians though i don't know a lot about the genocide but yer there were many other chritstians in teh ottoman empire in palestine, in lebabon, in syria, in jordan and they weren't killed so killing them because there were christians sounds a bit odd

besides as u said some christians did fight the ottoman empire so did the arabs (with a majority of muslims indeed) so it wasn't an issue of chritstians only

Re: Armenian Genocide

Bennyman — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 01:24:06 GMT

LanguageLover wrote:

I don't know what really happened at that period of time, just wanna say this that the government and its archives are also cannot be trusted!

These kind of controversial debates are always present when it comes to this kind of matter. I think the Jwish genocide during the word war II is another example. I think that many jews were killed and suffered, but along with lots of other people from different nationalities. And the Jews exagerate it so to make other people feel pity and maybe give them the right to return to Jerusalem and have this never ending war with Palestinians. Forget about the Jews, all I wanna say is that none of the parties are trustworthy, there is always exageration and denial involved; and we haven't witnessed those events ourselves; so, who knows what really happened?

This coming from a moderator and trusted person. Shame on you. Your post was not alone ignorant, but also on par with neo-nazi holocaust denial.

Re: Armenian Genocide

YoungCalifornian — Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:54:36 GMT

I think that this BBC link gives a fair assessment regarding the current political situation surrounding this topic: Q&A: Armenian 'genocide'.

It also provides links to other relevant articles.

Re: Armenian Genocide

MrPedantic — Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:26:26 GMT

Just a reminder:

This is a forum for learning English and exchanging ideas.

It's not a place for practising your ability to hurl insults at entire nations and peoples.

Please be courteous and dispassionate in your posts. Otherwise they will be deleted, and you will have wasted your time.

All the best,

MrP

Re: Armenian Genocide

Kajmerist_s — Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:40:57 GMT

Super Sonic wrote:
I am a Turk and no, such a thing didn't happen. I don't say so because I am Turk, but because I know my HISTORY.

I agree with you my friend,it's not because I'm a Turk too,but because I've really scrutinized my history about the subject from A to Z.there's nothing as Armenian said to be a genocide...it's true some people died at that time,but it was because of contagious illnesses or the law of migration that was legislated by the Ottoman for the Armenian that was doing hazardous things or working against Ottoman.I have deepand detailed information about this subject and it's also my term homework... if you still have suspicion or want to learn more,you can ask me...I'm sure,I'll be able to change your mind... (inÅalllah)

Uppsss!...the anonymous writer is me,but when I was sending this,I wasn't a member...sorry....

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:08:47 GMT

Super Sonic wrote:
I am a Turk and no, such a thing didn't happen. I don't say so because I am Turk, but because I know my HISTORY.

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:22:53 GMT

Is any body want the truth abouth this story.So you have to search the history of TurkÄ±sh people.If you do this you will see the lie.In 1918-1923 TurkÄ±sh people fought for their freedom.And they need help all of their brothers.Once,armenian people and turkish people was a strong friend and so The Ottoman Empire trusted these armenian people.Empire thought that armenian people would helped the turks for fight the freedom of all poeople who was living there.But when the Turks was need their help where was the armenian people you know?They were killing the Turk's women and children in the village of Erzurum(city of Turkey)Why only women and children you know?Because the man went to fight for freedom of their country.When the soldiers had came back their village they found the dead bodys of their woman and their children.Some soldiers couldn't find thir women because they were burned in the mosque and in the stable.Yes in the stable.Armenian people tied the turkÄ±sh peoples on the oxs.And after they filled the animal in the stable.They had closed the door of stable and then they buried the stable.TurkÄ±sh soldier was shocked when they had seen this image.And they asked who did it my wife?Who did it my children.Who burned them?.And After they learned armenian did this torture.Firstly they didn't belive this because they belived armenin was the best friend of the Turks.But unfortunately armenian did torture.They did for the gain some soil.After soldier had lerned truth ofcourse they found the killer armenian and killed them.And now I am asking you:Think,Your son and your wife was killed mercilesly by some people.Dont you want to kill that people?Ofcourse you want because that people kill your all life.

I know a lot of true story abouth this subject but I don't want to tell any more because we are proud people.We aren't like armenian.I can't say Armenian killed my grand mother calmly.But they can say.Because they are the real lier.(not all armenian ofcourse)

And today I don't accuse the armenian's child because they didn't kill my grand father.This is not their fault.

But Ä±f you want to leran the true don't belive armenian,don't belive turks don't belive me and don't belive what you know.Forget all know and search the history.Serch the history of turks,and history of armenians I promise you will see the truth.You will see the real lier.

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:55:53 GMT

yes i believe it happened the turkish army in the last periods of the Ottoaman empire was so bad they were evil they didn't kill armenians only they killed arabs too damn slaughters

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:55:32 GMT

Hi I am a turk. I dont think that there were not a genocide; but that there exist two genocides, or one total genocide committed by turk and armenian soldiers and turk and armenian people against about 2.200.000 turk and armenian people of the eastern Turkey(Anatolia). For, there were really inhuman murders torturies burglaries on the area; although none of these seem to have been the principal cause of the massacres. Personnally I feel myself responsible of my nation's relation with these massacres today.

Re: Armenian Genocide

Super Sonic — Sat, 23 Dec 2006 00:34:01 GMT

I am a Turk and no, such a thing didn't happen. I don't say so because I am Turk, but because I know my HISTORY.

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:19:24 GMT

You have to prove there was a genicide! All these people who claim a Genocide write Anonymous Letters. From what I've experienced of the Armenian people in Southern California is they are self serving and rude beyond any race I've met. Car dealerships have to have Armenian sales people because the other people will not deal with them. That is what I see with my eyes. Plus they are pushing for the City of Glendale to recognize the Genocide. So far they have not pushed their will, but one day as they take over they will get it. we need proof of the Genocide to accept it.

Re: Armenian Genocide

Anonymous — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:06:31 GMT

Quoting from YoungCalifornian "I'll repeat myself once more. Almost all historians outside of Turkey agree that a genocide took place."

171 countries do not recognize an Armenian genocide. Only 10 countries do recognize.

On May 19, 1985, a total of 63 scholars from various American universities sent a letter to the U.S. House of representatives opposing the House Joint Resolution 192 which defines the events of 1915 as genocide.

To name a few renonwned historians who believe that there's no such thing as Armenian genocide; Bernard Lewis (Princeton University), Justin McCarthy (University of Louisville), Gilles Veinstein (College de France), Stanford Shaw (UCLA), J.C. Hurewitz (Columbia University), Heath Lowry (Princeton University), Guenter Lewy (University of Massachusetts), Roderic Davison (Central European University), Jeremy Salt (University of Melbourne), Malcolm Yapp (University of London), Rhoads Murphey (University of Birmingham)... YoungCalifornian wrote "I don't know how else to tell you, but almost everyone who has studied the subject outside of Turkey (including historians, politicians, researchers, teachers, and students) all agree that Turkey committed genocide" Really..?

Let me tell you one thing.. The reason why you hear ideas in favor of Armenian stance is because they have a strong lobby. Not just the lobby. PBS cancelled the documentary named Armenian Revolt due to bomb threats from Armenians. Stanford Shaw (UCLA)'s house was bombed by Armenian extremists.And these are only two examples. There's a great propaganda effort against Turks and since people are already biased against them, it is easy to convince average people with very little knowledge of history. Just check out the people you refer to as the ones agreeing that there was a genocide. They are either famed figures who have nothing to do with history (celebrities, novelists etc.) or historians of Armenian descent. When propaganda is not enough, Armenian groups take action to stop opposing ideas from being heard.

YoungCalifornian wrote "As for the French, they killed a lot of Algerians. You can call what they did mass killings, you can call them massacres, but you cannot call it genocide, because the French were never trying to exterminate the Algerian people." What makes you think Turks were trying to exterminate Armenians? If goal was extermination why relocate them to Syria. Armenians killed about 800,000 Turks + Kurds + Jews + Greeks (in Trabzon) by shooting, slitting their throats, or throwing them into water wells and filling the wells with rocks. Why relocate them and why have Near East Relief Fund, Red Cross to provide them with food and medicine? Did Hitler expel Jews from Germany, or in Khmer Rouge example or in Rwanda .... Or did they just kill them? Why deport only the Armenians from where rebellions took place or in the path of advancing Russian army and not Armenians in Istanbul? Were they less Armenian? If you put the bias aside and think, you'll see it just doesn't make sense.

Please watch the documentary below (entire series) and decide for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55dk_0H6w-o&mode=related&search=

Then check the PBS documentary "Armenian Genocide". Which one gives you the complete picture, which one omits crucial facts? Turks have documented ~550,000 with their names who died in the hands of Armenians and not another day passes without finding a mass grave full of Turks and Kurds. Estimate of people killed by Armenians:800,000. Total during that period including Turks who were expelled from Balkans and Caucacus: 2,400,000. Do you know why the Armenian loss estimates are so volatile. Because it is not documented. Estimate of population before the war - after the war. That's the basis. Turkish government invited Armenian experts to Turkey, opening all the archives, even giving them the guarantee to excavate the locations they'll point. If people have died, bodies should be somewhere, don't you think? But Armenian president rejected the offer. Why? If you're so certain why avoid confrontation?