http://www.englishforums.com/English/ControversialTopics/Forum28.htm<font color=red>This entire section is moderated</font><br> Dedicated to continual re-education and our search for a broader understanding of life. Please register if you wish to post here.enXMOD (Build: 3616.28671)http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412336Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:412336Ruslana0http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412336http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-412336.xmlGuys! Chill out!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412315Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:412315Dew 20071http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412315http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-412315.xmlI thought the thread had been closed and sealed, because we have settled the problem of veiling women in Islam with the help of our Muslim women... Hemavich, are you not satisfied with the answer of the women of your religion&amp; Or you don't respect them at all?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412296Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:412296Hemavich2http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412296http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-412296.xmlForbes wrote: Why is it not a tradition that men go veiled? Does not the sight of their faces incite lustful thoughts in women, not to mention other men? Hi Forbes, In Islam women should lower their gaze.It seems that Christians here don't want to reply my question about Veiling Women in Christianity . Or some may not know indeed. But we all know one thing that a nun has all freedom to be veiled and she is respected for devoting herself to GOD.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412144Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:412144Feebs113http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412144http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-412144.xmlA good point. And how much of women's feeling of a need to cover themselves the reaction to male attitudes and behaviour on the street?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412135Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:412135Forbes4http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/20/czpcc/Post.htm#412135http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-412135.xmlWhy is it not a tradition that men go veiled? Does not the sight of their faces incite lustful thoughts in women, not to mention other men?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#410758Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:410758Hemavich5http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#410758http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-410758.xmlDew 2007 wrote: I think that women veiled is a kind of humiliation of women. In this case I sympathise with the Muslim women. I won't say that it is not your business. but this is a discussion and u have not to speak like that. By using the word "Humiliation" you insult Islam as a religion. And Muslim women sympathise the unveiled women. however there are some don't veil their body. the significance of this veil is to defend her the seduction of Satan and not to fall in evil deeds we all know well. Now Can anybody tell us about this matter in Christianity and the BIBLE !!! Cuz i guess it is (or was) the same. The fact we all know is that only pricey thing is to be covered. U have the freedom to unveil it...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#390099Tue, 26 May 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:390099Mythical Lady6http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#390099http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-390099.xmlDear Kabayan, I've already settled the matter with Dew. I believe the way you do. He's really a considerate man and I fully respect him and you as well. I just want to make some points considering me and Muslim women seeking for much understanding from others. I am going to repeat a plea I've already stated when first posting this topic: whenever you deal with a veiled women, don't concentrate on the veil and deal with the human and brain behind it. Long Live Peace and Friendship!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#390007Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:390007Dew 20077http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#390007http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-390007.xmlKabayan, I am really grateful to you for the post. And I am sure that being friends regardless of the religious or cultural misunderstandings is the very thing for our planet to be peaceful. Perhaps something in your culture may seem "strange" or even "unacceptable" to the people of other beliefs. But in fact I think that by the end of the year I'll be able to understand You and Your culture better, as well as you will be able to do the same. I even think that I'll have much more muslim friends all around the world. Long Live Peace and Friendship!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389909Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389909Kabayan8http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389909http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389909.xmlDear Mythical lady, Assalamu alaikum, Our friend Dew wrote what he wrote because he has social awareness. Regardless that he doesn't know Islamic teachings in details, or the difference between Islamic teachings and The culture of Muslim majority country , I'm so sure that he is a very good guy. He is such a nice gentleman. We muslims should be thankful because we have an opportunity to make friends with him. Wassalam,http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389881Tue, 26 May 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389881Dew 20079http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389881http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389881.xmlMythical Lady, I think your post has settled all the arguments of us, men, ignorant of the feelings of a real muslim woman wearing a veil. I believe you and trust your opinion. I think it must be the end of discussion. Long Live Peace!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389871Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389871Mythical Lady10http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389871http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389871.xmlIt's funny when you hear somebody spoke of the others (who in reality are meant to speak) and talked about their feelings while they are not what they say. Being a Muslim woman who is proud to wear the veil, I feel no humilation, neither I feel male dominance over me, neither I follow rules with blind faith. A few days age, a poll presented on a T.V show to ask women in my country ( Saudi Arabia) whether they like to wear the veil or not. Surprisingly to others, expected by me, 97% of the voters prefer to wear the veil. I believe they feel the way I do. No humiliation, No male dominance because of the veil, No following the rules with blind faith. Then what? do you still feel sympathy and pity over veiled women? then I should tell...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389856Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389856Dew 200711http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389856http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389856.xmlKabayan, I am really sorry. I must have misunderstood your point. Then the question remains for the others who think it normal to veil women. I really meant no offence.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389785Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389785Kabayan12http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389785http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389785.xmlDew, Will you proof your statement that Islam really teaches that women are property of their husband ? Will you show Billions of Muslims all over the world the verse in Qur'an that says so ?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389747Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389747Kabayan13http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/19/czpcc/Post.htm#389747http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389747.xmlDew, I don't know ! Why do you ask me ? I'm not the person who think that a married woman should cover her face. You better ask yourself ! Why do you use your outfits right now ? I'm really carefull with what I wrote. It is better to understand every issues from it's two or more extrme points. Good Luck !http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389738Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389738Dew 200714http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389738http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389738.xmlThen why noone but the husband (and the relatives) can see the face a married woman? Why veil the beautiful nudity (as you say it)? But we should be careful about everything! Let's not jump from one extreme point to another..http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389727Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389727Kabayan15http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389727http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389727.xmlDew 2007 wrote: Kabayan wrote: It is better to let women in nudity than to wrap them with veil. Why exaggerate? It's better to let them wear what they want - not make them be wrapped in veil and forbid them to open their faced. I am not at all fond of public nudity. But the women are beautiful let them be adored for what they look like, and not treat them as a property of their husbands! Exaggerate what ? All human were born nude. Don't you think that is is more natural for them to be nude ? Don't you think that it is more natural for them to open their faces, their hairs, their breasts, chests, their bellys, their backs, their butts, thier legs, or even their private organs ? Human faces, legs,...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389719Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389719Kabayan16http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389719http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389719.xmlJane Greco wrote: It's funny how when a Moslem lady arrives to Australia she is not forced to wear a mini-skirt and thongs...( That's what an overwhelming majority of our beauties are wearing,anyway ) I really wish people in some Moslem countries would respect our culture and the way we dress, just like we do. Yeah, It's funny , the more funny is that we haven't define how mini the skirt is should be ? is it 40 cm, 30 cm, 20 cm, or 5 cm ? Have you tried wearing mini-skirts or thongs when you go to the court, parliament building, or in front of prime minister's office ? I really wish that people in some non-muslims majority countries understand that muslims in muslim majority countries do respect to other...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389517Tue, 26 May 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389517Dew 200717http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389517http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389517.xmlBut it's the country where Islam is not a ruling religion, isn't it?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389169Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389169Anonymous18http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389169http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389169.xmlJust spoke to my boyfriend last night( I am an Orthodox, he is Moslem) and we both agreed that Holy Books (all of them) are just food for thought, not the instruction for life.... I really don't get what wearing a headscarf or not eating fish or not having sex on Wednesday has to do with such great thing as believing in God... Just a number of rules people made up ....http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389029Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389029Dew 200719http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389029http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389029.xmlThat's perhaps the main point of any fundamentalist view - such people follow the "rules" blindly without any critical look at the problem. Veiling women (as I see it) is one of the things that shows that men are prior to women in something. This idea contradicts with the idea of equality of the sexes and has some kind of prehistoric prejudice. And it proves the fact that this kind of belief is too old and out-of-date and it should be changed in order to establish equal rights between sexes.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389022Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:389022Jhumjhum20http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#389022http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-389022.xmlThere are many ways of wearing modest dresses,what's the purpose of covering face?specially when some hideous looking old women wear burkha and cover their face I feel humoured.I have no intention to humiliate the religion but in all religion there are some people who follow some rules unreasonably which I think they should think over that logicallyhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#388855Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:388855Prez1dent21http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#388855http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-388855.xmlGOLD WORDS No commentshttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#388691Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:388691Dew 200722http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/18/czpcc/Post.htm#388691http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-388691.xmlKabayan wrote: It is better to let women in nudity than to wrap them with veil. Why exaggerate? It's better to let them wear what they want - not make them be wrapped in veil and forbid them to open their faced. I am not at all fond of public nudity. But the women are beautiful let them be adored for what they look like, and not treat them as a property of their husbands!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#388356Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:388356Jane Greco23http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#388356http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-388356.xmlIt's funny how when a Moslem lady arrives to Australia she is not forced to wear a mini-skirt and thongs...(That's what an overwhelming majority of our beauties are wearing,anyway) I really wish people in some Moslem countries would respect our culture and the way we dress,just like we do.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#388282Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:388282Kabayan24http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#388282http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-388282.xmlTo some extend, I agree with you Dew. It is better to let women in nudity than to wrap them with veil.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#388012Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:388012Dew 200725http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#388012http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-388012.xmlI can see the difference, but I want to state my point that veiling women is humiliation, and in this way the people humiliate women. The main difference sould be between humiliating and being humiliated.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#387991Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:387991Kabayan26http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#387991http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-387991.xmlDew, I wrote "Religions assesment" not "Religion's assesment". Can you see the difference ? Anybody can see the difference ?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#387472Tue, 26 May 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:387472Kabayan27http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#387472http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-387472.xmlDew 2007 wrote: Kabayan wrote: I do think that Religions Assesment is an appropriate way to help us in making decision whether we should believe in religion or not. And they also give people an appropriate tool to control the people's minds in order to send them to death or humiliate sometimes. I think that women veiled is a kind of humiliation of women. In this case I sympathise with the Muslim women. Thank you for stating your idea with out giving us any reason !http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#385077Tue, 26 May 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:385077Dew 200728http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#385077http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-385077.xmlKabayan wrote: I do think that Religions Assesment is an appropriate way to help us in making decision whether we should believe in religion or not. And they also give people an appropriate tool to control the people's minds in order to send them to death or humiliate sometimes. I think that women veiled is a kind of humiliation of women. In this case I sympathise with the Muslim women.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#384428Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:384428Anonymous29http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#384428http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-384428.xmlmm well guys guess many religions asks ppl not to have sex before marriage eventhough we all want to have it before marriage but some people do relly forllow the rules of their religon and same goes for muslims' veilhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#381795Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:381795Kabayan30http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#381795http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-381795.xmlIn Islam, veil is only a kind of tool, not doctrine.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#381794Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:381794Kabayan31http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/17/czpcc/Post.htm#381794http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-381794.xmlI used to like thinking, talking about, and discussing religions in theoritical way. It was long time ago. Now, I prefer talking about, thinking, discussing religions in more practical way. I do think that Religions Assesment is an appropriate way to help us in making decision whether we should believe in religion or not.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#380135Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:380135Stannum32http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#380135http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-380135.xmlMorgan Le Fey wrote: I believe that when human society got more sophisticated they needed a way to codify mother Earth's Laws. They called it religion. Religions got more complicated with time as societies got more complicated too. I believe that religion predates societies as we know them. It has been established beyond any doubt that Cro-Magnon were religious and it is possible that current chimpanzees, whales and elephants are religious. There is some pretty firm evidence to suggest that some birds are religious. I believe that religion comes from our forebrain and our knowledge of our own mortality. Stannumhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#380110Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:380110Doll33http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#380110http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-380110.xmlStannum wrote: I am sorry to disappoint you but on this point I happen to agree with Forbes, go figure. Why do you think that I will be disappointed? You are free to point out your view.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379896Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379896Morgan Le Fey34http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379896http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379896.xmlStannum wrote: I live my life perfectly well and in perfect syncronicity with my fellow beings with utterly no care for or reference to any holy book unless you count the Naked Ape series by Desmond Morris as holy. Stannum Hello Stannum: And all animals live according a moral code, mother Earth's moral code. They live in perfect synchronicity with mother Earth. The first humans lived that way. I believe that when human society got more sophisticated they needed a way to codify mother Earth's Laws. They called it religion. Religions got more complicated with time as societies got more complicated too. But I firmly believe that mother Earth's laws are the same for everyone. No one needs a religion to...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379757Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379757Stannum35http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379757http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379757.xmlGoodmorning nocturnal Doll, I am sorry to disappoint you but on this point I happen to agree with Forbes, go figure. I live my life perfectly well and in perfect syncronicity with my fellow beings with utterly no care for or reference to any holy book unless you count the Naked Ape series by Desmond Morris as holy. Stannumhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379739Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379739Doll36http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379739http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379739.xmlGood night nocturnal Stannum, Yes, you are right. We can live morally just by using our mind but don't forget that holy books were sent for first human(s), so they should have said something. Anyway, this reminds us that holy books have some relationship with mind, so we should read them carefully and think twice. I just can't stand people's saying that we could live without them. This shouldn't be so easy. Ps: What I wrote before has nothing to do with what Forbes wrote.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379737Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379737Stannum37http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379737http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379737.xmlDoll wrote: Really? So what do you think make them behave morally? G'day Doll, (That sounds like an Aussie Humphrey Bogart) I believe that people live morally because it is simply the most efficient way to live a happy life. I don't need Ten Commandments to tell me what is right. I know in my heart what is right and it is a sad person indeed who requires a codified set of instructions to shape a life by. Morality is simply codified efficiency. See ya Doll, Stannumhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379684Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379684Stannum38http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379684http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379684.xmlForbes wrote: I do not accept that humans behave morally because of religion. Dear Forbes, This may or may not be true or accurate but what does it have to do with the current discussion? Stannumhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379683Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379683Doll39http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379683http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379683.xmlReally? So what do you think make them behave morally?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379680Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379680Forbes40http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/16/czpcc/Post.htm#379680http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379680.xmlI do not accept that humans behave morally because of religion.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#379154Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379154Sara Straight & Tall41http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#379154http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379154.xmlForbes wrote: Notwithstanding that my belief in this regard may be erroneous, and indeed the result of me deceiving myself, I find this depressing because it seems to me prove how strong the pernicious influence of religion is even on the noblest of minds. Excuse me, but, what is the pernicious influence of: 1- Murder is forbidden 2- Theft is forbidden 3- Sexual inmorality is forbidden 4- Eating flesh from a living animal is forbidden 5- Worship of idols is forbidden 6- Blaspheming is forbidden 7- Society must establish a fair system of justice to administer law with honesty. Aren't you mixing up religion with fundamentalism?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#379026Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:379026Stannum42http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#379026http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-379026.xmlForbes wrote: What depresses me is that so many people, after the most careful deliberation and soul-searching, come to convince themselves of the truth of the doctrines they were taught as children and the value of the customs they were brought up with. Forbes wrote: Would this have been better? Whilst I have no empirical evidence to support the contention, it is my belief that those who have expressly stated that they have engaged in a rigorous examination of the religious doctrines they were taught as children and found them to be satisfactory have, in fact, engaged in an exercise of self-deception. Notwithstanding that my belief in this regard may be erroneous, and indeed the result of me deceiving myself, I find...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378975Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:378975Forbes43http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378975http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-378975.xmlWould this have been better? Whilst I have no empirical evidence to support the contention, it is my belief that those who have expressly stated that they have engaged in a rigorous examination of the religious doctrines they were taught as children and found them to be satisfactory have, in fact, engaged in an exercise of self-deception. Notwithstanding that my belief in this regard may be erroneous, and indeed the result of me deceiving myself, I find this depressing because it seems to me prove how strong the pernicious influence of religion is even on the noblest of minds. It could perhaps do with a little polishing, but I think I have eliminated the irony.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378811Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:378811Stannum44http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378811http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-378811.xmlForbes wrote: With equal respect, Stannum, I fear you have failed to detect the irony in my post. I was only joking is about equal with 'the cat ate my homework'. I saw and see no ironic language nor construction in your referenced post but of course I take your word for it and I will be more attentive to your little jokes on such subjects in future. Thank you for your most instructive contributions. Stannumhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378788Tue, 26 May 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:378788Forbes45http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378788http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-378788.xmlWith equal respect, Stannum, I fear you have failed to detect the irony in my post. I cannot say for certain, since I do not know the minds of other people, but I suspect that the average man or woman in the street does not question his or her beliefs too closely. There are though, I feel sure, those who have set out on a quest to find out what they believe only to discover that they believe what they have always believed. My post was aimed at those, I cannot say if it is in this thread or another or on a different site, who have expressly stated that have have thought about whether or not to wear the veil (they must naturally live in countries where they have a choice) and come to the conclusion that it is what they really want to...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378685Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:378685Stannum46http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378685http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-378685.xmlForbes wrote: What depresses me is that so many people, after the most careful deliberation and soul-searching, come to convince themselves of the truth of the doctrines they were taught as children and the value of the customs they were brought up with. With any due respect I must challenge your hysteron proteron opinion. Forbes, Where is there even one jot of evidence that the believer of any doctrine has ever indulged in careful deliberation and soul searching? One single line of writing will do to support your contention. To support my contention I will start with a quote from a long haired bloke with sandles and a bad attitude to authority who faked his own death and hit the toe in the most spectular manner. Woe...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378653Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:378653Forbes47http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#378653http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-378653.xmlWhat depresses me is that so many people, after the most careful deliberation and soul-searching, come to convince themselves of the truth of the doctrines they were taught as children and the value of the customs they were brought up with.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#371457Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:371457Sara Straight & Tall48http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#371457http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-371457.xmlYou are utterly and absolutely right, Kabayan.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#371420Tue, 26 May 2009 18:13:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:371420Kabayan49http://www.englishforums.com/English/IslamVeilingWomen/15/czpcc/Post.htm#371420http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-371420.xmlJane Greco wrote : What I am really concerned about is that those girls,who are wearing veils are usually end up cleaning apartments or cooking in the small family cafes. None of them do attend university, or work in the bank,school etc,as the country's law does not allow one to walk in a govermental building wearing a veil,or even a headscarf. Women are not allwed to wear what they want to wear. It seems that extrimism can occurs on both pro-veiling or anti-veiling sides. That is soooooo sad, isn't it ? My wife has already wore veil since the first time we met. I can say that it was a love at first sight. To be frankly, I preferred a girl who wear less outfit than one who wear veil, but I can't resist my love to a girl who...