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Please register if you wish to post here.enXMOD (Build: 3616.28671)http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/3/cpnbb/Post.htm#321669Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:321669Anonymous0http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/3/cpnbb/Post.htm#321669http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-321669.xmli'm not an islam scholar i don't know if they have to be killed but i'm sure that punishment in islam is meant to forgive the sins and be punished in life not in his life after death which i think better for him i mean it's better than HELLhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/3/cpnbb/Post.htm#321661Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:321661Anonymous1http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/3/cpnbb/Post.htm#321661http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-321661.xmlhere i am personaly i'm against death penalty in general no matter what teh reason was but i want to clarify theidea of apostates in islam and the death penalty as we believe that changing your religion to christanity or juadism the problem is not in changing the religion as all religion are great but the issue of not believing in mohamad or Qur'an anymore or believing that god is tripple as in christainity which contradicts our believes so here come the idea that changing the religion is a sin so it the guy was muslim and them changed they should try to get him back to his beliefs as we believe this is better for him and we believe that if he didn't the death penalty will erase his sin and his sin will be forgiven,i think death...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/3/cpnbb/Post.htm#320946Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:320946Forbes2http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/3/cpnbb/Post.htm#320946http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-320946.xmlForbes wrote: YoungCalifornian wrote: Finally, let me say that I would like the actual issue here to be addressed. I'm not looking to debate the overall merit or truth of Islam. Instead, please just answer the question posed in the final sentence of my second paragraph in this post, which is essentially the same one posed by me in my previous post and by Forbes. Looks like no Moslem (or indeed anyone else) is prepared to address the issue. Still no Moslems coming forward?http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#300081Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:300081Forbes3http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#300081http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-300081.xmlYoungCalifornian wrote: Finally, let me say that I would like the actual issue here to be addressed. I'm not looking to debate the overall merit or truth of Islam. Instead, please just answer the question posed in the final sentence of my second paragraph in this post, which is essentially the same one posed by me in my previous post and by Forbes. Looks like no Moslem (or indeed anyone else) is prepared to address the issue.http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246191Tue, 26 May 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:246191YoungCalifornian4http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246191http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-246191.xmlFirstly,I agree what she says about your absolute judgements. But it doesnt matter. What I dont understand is your understanding of debate. Is it something that you will or lose? Anyway. Thank you for reminding me of what type of discussion we are proceeding in. You don't post here because you want to know Islamic views about the topic but to argue such a topic as long as you have already made up your mind about it. This is a fight I don't want to be a part of. Firstly, let me apologize. It was indeed wrong of me to characterize this discussion as a debate that can be won or lost, and for that I am sorry. Nonetheless, the point remains that if you wish to have an enlightened discussion, you cannot immediately disqualify...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246155Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:246155Mythical Lady5http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246155http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-246155.xmlI'd like to shed light on some misconceptions in your posts before I quit this debate from my side. "you've already lost the debate." Thank you for reminding me of what type of discussion we are proceeding in. You don't post here because you want to know Islamic views about the topic but to argue such a topic as long as you have already made up your mind about it. This is a fight I don't want to be a part of. "I must also make clear that I am a firm believer in the separation of church and state." Having said this, that explains much. On this basis, you would not accept ANY judgments Islam offers about ANY case, not only apostasy. In Islam both religion and state are two sides of the same coin. To verify Janissary's opinion,...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246135Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:246135YoungCalifornian6http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246135http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-246135.xmlEither Islam allows a man to be killed for changing his religion or it does not. Will some Moslem give me a yes or no answer instead of telling me to become a scholar of Islam. Thank you! Perhaps I have been too long-winded, but this is the question I've been trying to drive home. Do you, as an individual Muslim, condone the execution of Muslim apostates irregardless of the circumstances surrounding conversion?http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246107Tue, 26 May 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:246107Forbes7http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246107http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-246107.xmlIt is quite intolerable that a man should be subject to a trial of any kind, let alone sentenced to death, for changing his religion. Either Islam allows a man to be killed for changing his religion or it does not. Will some Moslem give me a yes or no answer instead of telling me to become a scholar of Islam.http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246100Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:246100Janissary8http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246100http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-246100.xmlYoungCalifornian wrote: If you're going to isolate yourself from criticism by claiming that anyone who questions Islam must be ignorant of it, you've already lost the debate. Firstly,I agree what she says about your absolute judgements. But it doesnt matter. What I dont understand is your understanding of debate. Is it something that you will or lose? Anyway. YoungCalifornian wrote: as I implied in posts above, I think it a flawed tradition in Islam that individuals are not trusted to make their own interpretations, I think thats why Christianity has turned to a business, a commercil rather than a religion in Middle Ages.Because everyone interpreted it in a way to benefit from which has spoiled...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246097Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:246097Janissary9http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246097http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-246097.xmlYoungCalifornian wrote: I can accept that times were different when Islam was founded. I would also concede that it's unfair to judge the actions of Muhammed and early Muslims by modern standards of morality. However, what I cannot accept is when the morality and ethics of the 7th century are applied today. Christians, and member of other religions, have been equally harsh in their treatment of non-believers and converts at various points in history. The difference is that modern Christians do not look to the actions of those historic Christians as an examples of how they should behave in the 21st century. In essence, elements of their beliefs have evolved with the times. In contrast, it seems that many, if not most, Muslims look...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246076Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:246076Mythical Lady10http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#246076http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-246076.xmlI'd like to shed light on some misconceptions in your posts before I quit this debate from my side. "you've already lost the debate." Thank you for reminding me of what type of discussion we are proceeding in. You don't post here because you want to know Islamic views about the topic but to argue such a topic as long as you have already made up your mind about it. This is a fight I don't want to be a part of. "I must also make clear that I am a firm believer in the separation of church and state." Having said this, that explains much. On this basis, you would not accept ANY judgments Islam offers about ANY case, not only apostasy. In Islam both religion and state are two sides of the same coin. You said "Religious belief...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#245965Tue, 26 May 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:245965Pidr1nhu11http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/2/cpnbb/Post.htm#245965http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-245965.xmlAs we know religion debates/discussions are long and don't take us to a higher level. I beg you, don't continue with this, it will only generate more and more arguments and false conclusions. The initial content held was about a single case of an apostate 'Abdul Rahman', who famously faced a death sentence in Afghanistan earlier this year after converting to Christianity.The question was only about the measures taken by the muslim judges and if those measures were a particular case in Afghanistan or could be extended to all the Islam religion, I mean by this, if the Islam don't accept convertion of its members or the fact with Abdul Rahman was a fatality (an isolated fact)?http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245810Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:245810YoungCalifornian12http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245810http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-245810.xmlYoung Californian, either you misunderstand the content of the answer (whish is unlikely) or you read the topic on the purpose of opposing ,not getting much understanding about it. Instead of asking questions that were raised in your mind, you keep attacking and giving negative attitudes towards Islam.(Is this a new way of learning?). Questioning something has always been the best way to learn about it. If I receive answers to my questions which satisfy me, I will cease to press the issue. If not, I will continue challenging what I hear and read. Just because the answers presented do not satisfy me does not mean that I am not listening nor trying to keep as open a mind as possible. That said, I will state that my mind is already...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245787Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:245787YoungCalifornian13http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245787http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-245787.xmlWell, the rules about apostasy comes from the times of our prophet and Islam civlization at that time. Rules were for order of the Islam community and we cannot approach the matter with merely considering today`s conditions. And we cannot put all of these rules into the practice because first we dont have an appropriate Islam state to perform all of those rules. I can accept that times were different when Islam was founded. I would also concede that it's unfair to judge the actions of Muhammed and early Muslims by modern standards of morality. However, what I cannot accept is when the morality and ethics of the 7th century are applied today. Christians, and member of other religions, have been equally harsh in their treatment of...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245735Tue, 26 May 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:245735Mythical Lady14http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245735http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-245735.xmlYoung Californian, either you misunderstand the content of the answer (whish is unlikely) or you read the topic on the purpose of opposing ,not getting much understanding about it. Instead of asking questions that were raised in your mind, you keep attacking and giving negative attitudes towards Islam.(Is this a new way of learning?). Yet I am trying my best to clarify the matter for you and for whosever read your posts. First, let me tell about a basic rule in Islam we as Muslims have always been taught, never ever give arbitrary judgments about any case merely after hearing about it, unless you know the very conditions surrounding the circumstances, refer to both our reliable sources of knowledge which are the Quran and Hadeeth....http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245535Tue, 26 May 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:245535Janissary15http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245535http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-245535.xmlHello everyone; I have just come across this topic and I want to share my limited knowledge and opinions regarding the mattter, as well. Frankly speaking, this matter can vilify the tolerance conception of Islam, at the first sight. However, I think if we are talking about Islam, we must first look at Koran and prophet Mohammed,of course. Then I hope we will find the answers much more easily. First, I want to say these are only my comments about the matter.So, as a human,I can be wrong on somewhere but I just want to present my understanding.Well, the rules about apostasy comes from the times of our prophet and Islam civlization at that time. Rules were for order of the Islam community and we cannot approach the matter with merely...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245438Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:245438YoungCalifornian16http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245438http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-245438.xmlApart from a few of the footnotes, I read the entire page to which you provided the link, Mythical Lady. Frankly, it raised more questions that it answered, and disturbed me more than it pacified me. It seemed like nothing more than propoganda designed to convince the reader that Islam is nothing but a peaceful religion, despite much evidence to the contrary (some present in the article itself). The biggest problem I have with this piece is that it never actually addresses the plight of Abdul Rahman, despite Yusuf Estes's acknowledgement that it is as a result of Rahman's ordeal that the recent questions about apostasy in Islam arose. The author first gives a bunch of background information regarding Islam while failing to demonstrate...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245261Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:245261Mythical Lady17http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245261http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-245261.xmlHi there, I find it a little difficult to me to write a sentence or two or even a long post so as to explain completely and rightfully what I deeply believe in. So if you are really interested in this topic, you can click on the following link and find the answer yourselves. The answer is written by Yusuf Estes (an American Muslim and a former preacher in Christainity) http://www.islamnewsroom.com/content/view/92/26/ Hope you got the point. And we can discuss it if you wish and I could.http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245120Tue, 26 May 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:245120YoungCalifornian18http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#245120http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-245120.xmlYes Pidr1nhu, I'm curious to know what exactly the Islamic concept of "tolerance" is. What exactly are those Muslims calling for Rahman's head tolerating? Where is "peace" and "kindness" evident in their belief that he must die?http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#244748Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:244748Pidr1nhu19http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htm#244748http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-244748.xmlAgree with you YoungCalifornian. The defendant doesn't have the right to choose his own opinion, in better words it would be: if you do not choose what Islam says than all the peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity defended by it will turn over you as a sentence of death; This is not freedom or the so called tolerance, you did not let the poor man choose his own way of living. Could anyone more clarified explain this, Did those three judges misunderstood the Islam or not?http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htmSun, 26 Apr 2009 07:26:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:244512YoungCalifornian20http://www.englishforums.com/English/ApostatesIslamicWorld/cpnbb/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments28-244512.xmlI've been reading up a bit on the reaction to apostasy in the Islamic world, and I must say that I am shocked at how it is dealt with. I can't believe that it's a crime in most Muslim countries, and am absolutely appalled that countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan make it punishable by death ! I became interested in the topic after learning of the case of Abdul Rahman, the man who famously faced a death sentence in Afghanistan earlier this year after converting to Christianity. Similarly disheartening to me was the pretty much unanimous show of support for his execution among Muslim clerics from around the world. As a result of all this, I'm keenly interested in the opinions of the many Muslim visitors to...