Controversial Subjects

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Anonymous — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:11:12 GMT

Edsteraldo wrote:

Saying that the Jews make genocides is just as ridiculous as to say that Americans or Germans are all killers.

in the israeli agenda they decided to make an ethnic cleansing of palestine and palestinians tu can go and check Ben gerion scandle and if u look at the number of palestinians who are killed by israel it's clear it's a genocide see this www.ifamericansknew.com and how many times i've heard them saying they went all palestinians to be dead and they wish that Gazza drown it's clear they want them to be dead!

Jews don't say: ''we'll kill anybody who doesn't believe in God or David''

they want' to kill any non-jews in the holy land!

Somehow Islamists leaders say: ''we'll kill anybody who doesn't believe in Allah and who doesn't follow his rules''

LOL never happened oh please be realistic and tell me when did it happen it sounds like a nonsense for me besides palestine is a country for muslims and christians so no need to talk about Islamists only and as i see many ppl in my land don't believe in Allah and don't follow his rules they has never een killed nor got any threat so your statement is deadly wrong!

Israel is gonna attack any country who attempts against its own people. Islamists leaders are gonna kill anybody who doesn't follow their customs.

no, israel has many times attacked palestinian's cities while no one had attacked israel and even before the first suicide bomber in 1996, palestinians were suffering and being killed ,though i won't blame u , u just don't know what's happening israeli soldiers simply enter our city and start shooting freaking the civilians and they enter our city

If Russia was attacked by the USA, shouldn't Russia defend itself by not attacking back? If France was attacked by the UK, shouldn't France attack back to defend itself?

self-defence shouldn't include shooting children and we've seen israeli soldiers SHOOTING many kids besides you've obviously forgot the fact that israel is occuping palestine and opressing palestinians not viseversa! and last mounth 518 were killed in Gazza

Jews only want to have peace in their country, after all they come from that place. Arabs don't want to share.

in fact they didn't come from that land they were in egypt ya they lived there but it's not there homeland and btw the jews who used to live here has converted neither to christianity or islam which means they are one of the palestinains, I guess no one like to see his people being killed occupied and expelled that's it, we welcomed jews before 1948 but when it turned into occupation think it's a situatioon no oe lies to experince anyways as matter of fact now sure we won't to have peace and share land nothing more it's the only way to survive

Jews have always been hated throughout history everywhere, let them have their own land.

i do understand the right f jews to live in peace and have a homeland but as long as u like anyone to have his own rigths i don't think u'd like palestinians to lose their rights lives to be humilated and tortured for mostly no reason, as they should have their land palestinians should have it as well and live peacfully not under an israeli occupation that has no mercy

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Edsteraldo — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:53:30 GMT

Saying that the Jews make genocides is just as ridiculous as to say that Americans or Germans are all killers.

Jews don't say: ''we'll kill anybody who doesn't believe in God or David''

Somehow Islamists leaders say: ''we'll kill anybody who doesn't believe in Allah and who doesn't follow his rules''

Israel is gonna attack any country who attempts against its own people. Islamists leaders are gonna kill anybody who doesn't follow their customs.

If Russia was attacked by the USA, shouldn't Russia defend itself by not attacking back? If France was attacked by the UK, shouldn't France attack back to defend itself?

Jews only want to have peace in their country, after all they come from that place. Arabs don't want to share.

Jews have always been hated throughout history everywhere, let them have their own land.

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

MrPedantic — Thu, 28 Dec 2006 01:00:40 GMT

Anonymous wrote:

sure it didn't but i was mentioning what's happening not an opinion!

Sorry, Anon, I misunderstood your post!

MrP

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:06:07 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
for the poster, ok all what u said make sense but in the places u mentioned there is killing from both sides israel has came and started all this in 1948 40000 palestinian where killed and there wasn't an actions of killing from the palestinian side when i hear 581 palestinian has died while not any israeli did(as what happened in Gazza) it's unbelievable israel alwasy starts those attacks and massacares there is barely a very few terrorism actions from the palestinian sides and they barely come out with 10 dead israelis it's not a war it's a massacare!

Remember how you used to argue with other children, when you were a child:

"You did X!"

"Well, only because you did Y!"

"But X isn't as bad as Y!"

"No? But you did Z too!"

and so on.

Did it ever get you anywhere, Anon?

sure it didn't but i was mentioning what's happening not an opinion!

MrP

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

MrPedantic — Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:55:39 GMT

Anonymous wrote:
for the poster, ok all what u said make sense but in the places u mentioned there is killing from both sides israel has came and started all this in 1948 40000 palestinian where killed and there wasn't an actions of killing from the palestinian side when i hear 581 palestinian has died while not any israeli did(as what happened in Gazza) it's unbelievable israel alwasy starts those attacks and massacares there is barely a very few terrorism actions from the palestinian sides and they barely come out with 10 dead israelis it's not a war it's a massacare!

Remember how you used to argue with other children, when you were a child:

"You did X!"

"Well, only because you did Y!"

"But X isn't as bad as Y!"

"No? But you did Z too!"

and so on.

Did it ever get you anywhere, Anon?

MrP

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Anonymous — Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:33:20 GMT

for the poster, ok all what u said make sense but in the places u mentioned there is killing from both sides israel has came and started all this in 1948 40000 palestinian where killed and there wasn't an actions of killing from the palestinian side when i hear 581 palestinian has died while not any israeli did(as what happened in Gazza) it's unbelievable israel alwasy starts those attacks and massacares there is barely a very few terrorism actions from the palestinian sides and they barely come out with 10 dead israelis it's not a war it's a massacare!

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

J Lewis — Fri, 01 Dec 2006 12:26:45 GMT

In Anon's country everyone is poor, we read. It must be the only country i the world where the prime minister, the head of state, the police chiefs and the bosses are all poor.
In the meantime someone might find the following article from Israel interesting:

Massive public sector general strike rocks Israel

By Alon L. and Yossi Schwartz in Israel

Thursday, 30 November 2006

Yesterday the Histadrut, the Israeli federation of trade unions, organised a general strike of public sector workers. The reasons for the strike were on the one hand a holdover of pay in the local councils, religious councils, and the firemen's urban unions, and on the other hand, the theft of workers' money by the councils themselves, by transferring partial sums of money to the pension funds, which is estimated will cost the workers around a billion shekels.

The workers and the Histadrut leadership for months had been warning that they would strike, but the Ministry of Finance was too busy with far more important things, for example, how to keep stealing from the poor in order to give more money to the capitalists. Israel is practically a robber state: it has huge sums of money, but this money is used to line the pockets of the capitalists and the banks, and those of the corrupt heads of the military. It is used to create new millionaires and billionaires, not for the workers.

It is not only the council workers that are suffering; the entire working class is also suffering. Some working class families in which both parents work live below the poverty line. Today, for example, we heard Faraj Marai, head of the collection and tourism department of Horfesh council, explaining that he hasn't received his paycheck for six months. He is not on his own; another 37 workers are in the same situation. He and his fellow workers rightfully doubt that the strike, in the form it took, could solve the problem.

"We're already in a state of despair, and we believe that the Histadrut started its actions too late", says Marai. "The local council of Horfesh has many economic troubles, and even if money is found in the end we're not at all certain that we will receive it. All the bureaucratic procedures are burdensome... delaying. We believe that if the government wants to, it is possible to find a way to give all the workers their money."

He is right of course. This strike, although a positive step, did not bring out the full strength of the working class, and was not enough to win the fight. It is very good that the leadership of the Histadrut called the strike, but in order for it to win it should have been transformed into a general strike of all workers that would stop all economic activities in the country. A full strike would bring the bosses and corrupt politicians, who wage war on the workers, to their knees.

The Bourgeoisie Unites Against the Workers...

It did not take long for the capitalists to start their counter-offensive. The same day the strike started, the Federation of Israeli Chambers of Commerce and the Manufacturers' Association requested the National Labour Court issue an injunction ending the strike. Association economists claim that the strike would cost the country â meaning the bourgeois of course â 350 million NIS on just the first day. It is also said that within two days, gas [petrol] might have run out in gas stations, as it would not be delivered during the strike. Unfortunately the Court granted the injunction and the Histadrut called the strike off after one day. This however, does not remove the underlying problems that provoked the strike.

The capitalists and some of the extreme right did not waste any time in shedding crocodile tears over the plight of the poor workers. The president of the Manufacturers' Association, Shraga Brosh, said that holding back wages and the failure to transfer full sums to the pension funds are intolerable crimes. MK Nisan Slumianski (National Union-Mafdal) attacked the government on its economic policy. This is clearly no more than demagogy. Where has the Association been since 2004, when the last general strike took place, and the government promised to pay workers their salaries? And what about the two parties that form Slumianski's party, who were both part of Ariel Sharon's right-wing coalition several years ago? The radical right is trying to use the impotence of the workers' leadership in order to gain political influence at their expense, and this is the fault of this leadership, which entered the Olmert coalition despite the fact that the miserable outcome of this act was obvious to everyone, apart from the leaders themselves.

The president of the Federation of Israeli Chambers of Commerce, Uriel Lin, expressed the capitalists' fear of the strike, when he said that, "the planned strike is an example of the misuse of the power to strike and the right to strike. We must break [!] the tradition of local councils where they gain a large deficit and demand the government to pay their bills, at the expense of the tax payers. This is an unconscionable offense to all citizens of Israel, and to Israel's business sector in particular."

Lin and his cohorts have good reasons to be afraid. Considering its extraordinary class contradictions, Israel is a ticking time bomb from the perspective of the class struggle. Last year, the number of poor people in Israel stood at around 1.5 million. This year there a further 100,000 have joined them. Depression is rampant, and along with the brutal occupation of Palestine, this has made Israeli society alienating and violent. So far the capitalists have been able to divert attention from the social problems by using wars and ethnic conflicts, but this no longer works. The failed war against the Lebanese people has only increased the rage and frustration of the people, and the slaughter in Beit Hanoun has been condemned by most Israelis for its intolerable cruelty. The capitalists did not only fear the immediate economic damage that this strike would cause: they saw Jewish and Arab workers striking against them in concert, and they understand the possible political repercussions of this. A united class struggle is what the capitalists fear the most. This is why they wanted so desperately to stop the strike, despite the fact that it targeted mainly the government (of course from a practical point of view, this dichotomy is meaningless: the government represents the capitalists and carries out their policies in their interest).

In this context, it is worth quoting form a story that has been published in Walla, an Israeli internet portal:

"...passengers at the airport tried to push through a British Airways flight. The company requested the airport to allow the aircraft to leave the country, since the crew did not wake up on time and couldn't leave on time. The employees' committee allowed the flight to depart without the passengers, but British Airways tried to sneak the passengers in, as opposed to the conditions set by the committee. However, the committee found out about this, and the flight was cancelled - the crew itself stayed in Israel."

This teaches the workers' that not only were the Israeli capitalists trying to break the strike, but also those of other countries. Therefore what was needed was an appeal to the worldwide working class to support the strike, so that they would not be used to break it. This in fact has happened before, when during the dockworkers' strike the Israeli government asked the corrupt Arab regimes to help them by letting them use their ports to break the strike.

...and the Workers Unite Against the Bourgeoisie

About 12,000 workers are being hurt directly by the holding back of wages, and about a further 40,000 by the theft of pension money, most of them Arab and religious workers. Despite this fact, 200,000 workers came out on strike yesterday in protest at these crimes. Secular Jews, religious Jews, and Muslim and Christian Arabs were all striking together against their exploiters. This has been a marvellous example of working class solidarity, and the best weapon of the workers against the bourgeois.

According to clerks in the Histadrut situation room, most callers supported the strike, and the phones didn't stop ringing. Jihad Aqel, chairman of the situation room and a member of Hadash [the Communist party's electoral front], said that, "as one who has had experience in many strikes, I feel that the public supports us, even more than in the strike in 2004. The public is aware of the fact that this is about people who haven't received their wages or pension and that the problem wasn't solved in 2004, so apparently we must struggle." Also workers were calling in saying that their employers had threatened them to get them back to work. This shows that there is a need to set up militant action committees that will defend the rights of striking workers.

These are not minor details. Among left-wingers, in Israel as well, there is a notion that all Israeli Jews are a single reactionary social bloc. However, the Marxists have always emphasized the fact that in Israel there are workers and capitalists, exploited and exploiters. We have been anticipating the breaking out of the class struggle in Israel for many months now, since the capitalists are forced to attack the gains of the workers in order to increase their profits. Yesterday's strike shows that there are contradictory class interests in Israel, and that they transcend the national divide which is promoted by the capitalists in order to break the unity of the workers and prevent mass struggle. We have written before that the coming struggles will make short work of this infantile theory, and this strike is but the beginning.

Criticism and A Strategy for Victory

It is very kind of Peretz â who promised to raise the minimum wage to a 1000$, but instead took part in a filthy war in Bush's service â to say that he supported the strike. But if he supported the strike, what are the Labour leaders doing in the bourgeois Olmert government? Olmert did not immediately state his position on the strike, but the actions of Finance Minister Hirchson leave no doubt as to Kadima's position. On the other hand, we must say that although a general strike of 200,000 was a correct step, a positive one, which expressed the pressure of the working class rank and file of the Histadrut, we must remember that there are an additional 500,000 members in the trade union federation. Why did they not call them out on strike as well? The dichotomy between public sector and private sector workers is artificial, and serves only the capitalists by weakening the strike. The Histadrut should have extend the strike to include these workers, as well as encouraging unorganized workers to strike. This way the Histadrut could have strengthened the strike and itself for future battles.

A general strike, with a political character, whose aim it is to remove the government from power, would receive the support of many of Israel's two and a half million strong working class, and from their family members as well. But in order for this to happen, it is necessary to take militant strike action, under a democratic leadership elected in every workplace, and not just a partial strike controlled by the Histadrut bureaucracy. Where the committee is corrupt or non-existent, it is necessary to set up an elected committee, and to organize all striking workers in a mass organization of workers, to which the Histadrut leadership will have to answer, making it unable to act on its own.

This kind of strike would unite all workers, Jews and Arabs. The successful struggle of the workers against the capitalists sand their governments is the only way to make real peace between the people of this land, for wars, nationalism and racism are the weapons of the bosses and their corrupt servants, which allow them to create ethnic conflict between workers of different nationalities. A general strike, beginning with a full 24-hour strike, would teach the workers that no force on earth can defeat the workers fighting as a united class.

For the victory of the public sector workers!

For a real, full, 24-hour strike of the entire workforce as a first step!

Labour Party out of the government!

Down with the corrupt government, yes to a government of the working class!

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

MrPedantic — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:47:57 GMT

Anonymous wrote:
israel is democratic cause most of its citizens are fanatics!

Let's put Anon's statement to the test.

Here's a map of Tel Aviv:

http://www.telavivguide.net/files/telaviv-map.pdf

First of all, maybe someone who agrees with Anon's opinion can give me the name of somebody who lives in one of these streets. Let's say: "Namir Road".

Then we'll move on to stage 2...

MrP

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:56:07 GMT

J Lewis wrote:
In my first post on this thread I mentioned a lack of analysis which leads those on both sides of the debate to list âgoodâ and âbadâ countries without explaining why God, Allah, Jehovah or whoever should decide, in His infinite wisdom, to make some countries good and others bad.
I think this lack of analysis is evident in Anon's post about fanatics. What has made the Israelis fanatics in his opinion? Supporters of Israeli policy in turn claim that all Arabs, or all Muslims, are fanatics. This way of seeing things gets us nowhere.
Anon, tell us if there are exploiters and exploited in your country, if there are politicans who manoeuvre public opinion etc. and what can be done about them. Or are there only rich people, or only poor people, in your country?

well in fact seeing that most israelis was with bombing Gaza and they were asking for more bomibig , killing and exiling the palestinians i guess anon is right and this is more like a fact not an opinion, sure i don't mean that every single israeli is a fanatic

about the last ques, i only have have poor people in my country

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Darkjackass1234 — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:14:12 GMT

Anonymous wrote:
israel is democratic cause most of its citizens are fanatics!

that's right

isreal just

kill people but her use media petric israel propaganda

thax everyone here

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:49:38 GMT

J Lewis wrote:
In my first post on this thread I mentioned a lack of analysis which leads those on both sides of the debate to list âgoodâ and âbadâ countries without explaining why God, Allah, Jehovah or whoever should decide, in His infinite wisdom, to make some countries good and others bad.
I think this lack of analysis is evident in Anon's post about fanatics. What has made the Israelis fanatics in his opinion? Supporters of Israeli policy in turn claim that all Arabs, or all Muslims, are fanatics. This way of seeing things gets us nowhere.
Anon, tell us if there are exploiters and exploited in your country, if there are politicans who manoeuvre public opinion etc. and what can be done about them. Or are there only rich people, or only poor people, in your country?

i guess i should have said that most of them are fanatics , and if u really know them u'll simply came up with that conclusion

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

J Lewis — Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:21:33 GMT

In my first post on this thread I mentioned a lack of analysis which leads those on both sides of the debate to list âgoodâ and âbadâ countries without explaining why God, Allah, Jehovah or whoever should decide, in His infinite wisdom, to make some countries good and others bad.
I think this lack of analysis is evident in Anon's post about fanatics. What has made the Israelis fanatics in his opinion? Supporters of Israeli policy in turn claim that all Arabs, or all Muslims, are fanatics. This way of seeing things gets us nowhere.
Anon, tell us if there are exploiters and exploited in your country, if there are politicans who manoeuvre public opinion etc. and what can be done about them. Or are there only rich people, or only poor people, in your country?

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Anonymous — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:00:45 GMT

J Lewis wrote:
So why is France democratic? Why is Italy democratic? If you disagree with my analysis, say why, instead of shouting slogans. As you see, in my post I didn't defend the Israeli government or its policies in any way. I simply tried to see a way forward, given the failure of the present policies on both sides.

imean that most of israelis are fanatics so they will chose fanatics

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:08:55 GMT

Forbes wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
guys 85 died in Gazza becasue of bombimg , during 4 days only, and u still say there is no genocide in israel!

I think we need to understand what we mean by the word genocide. It is the deliberate killing of members of another race simply because they belong to another race. According to this definition Israel is not guilty of genocide. This does not of course mean that what they are doing is not wrong, but let's try and use the right words.

ok the other race are "arabs" or "palestinians"

Re: Crisises around the wolrd

J Lewis — Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:45:45 GMT

If you accuse a man of ten crimes when he has only committed nine, you can be sure that he will talk entirely about the one crime he did not commit.
Joseph's original post was dedicated entirely to countering the idea that Israel is committing genocide. About the general treatment of the Palestinians, about the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, about historical questions, about the political situation inside Israel he seemed to have nothing to say. I'm sad to see that most of the replies took the bait. The number of people killed by the Israeli armed forces is very large and this in my opinion is a terrible crime. I see no reason to make it sound worse by using the word genocide. Genocide means systematic extermination of an entire population, while Israel would be happy if the Palestinians lowered their heads and accepted all the injustices.
If we put aside this word, maybe the defenders of Israeli policy will have to find some other arguments, which will be more difficult.