http://www.englishforums.com/English/FrequentlyAskedEnglishQuestions-AnswersArchivedPosts/Forum31.htmArea designed to store the most commonly asked questions and their accepted answers.enXMOD (Build: 3607.32596)http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/6/gmkc/Post.htm#56470Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:28:41 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56470CalifJim0http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/6/gmkc/Post.htm#56470http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56470.xmlYes, yes, yes. You're right.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/6/gmkc/Post.htm#56442Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56442paco20041http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/6/gmkc/Post.htm#56442http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56442.xmlMR.P and Jim. Thank you . Now I think I got fully the usage of the wish construction. Ripley All your sentences are fine. Sounds you also got it! Congratulation! pacohttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/6/gmkc/Post.htm#56399Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56399ripley2http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/6/gmkc/Post.htm#56399http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56399.xmlHi Paco, so, I cannot say " I wish I went to London", but it is possible to say I wish I went to London every year; and I cannnot say " I wish I bought a car" but it is possible to say "I wish I bought a new car every five years.." Am I right? Thank you all. :d Rip.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/6/gmkc/Post.htm#56393Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56393CalifJim3http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/6/gmkc/Post.htm#56393http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56393.xmlKill the "if" in "wish if", and you'll be fine!http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56351Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56351MrPedantic4http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56351http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56351.xmlHowever, you cannot speak "I wish I bought a car" because you cannot suppose a current state of "I buy a car." A current state you can suppose about your buying a car is usually either "I have bought a car" or "I can buy a car." And so you would say either "I wish I had bought a car" or "I wish I could buy a car." You might also say: 'I wish I were buying a car.' MrP: What on earth are you doing in that bicycle shop, Paco? Paco: I'm buying a bicycle. MrP: A bicycle, Paco! In this weather? You must be mad! Paco: I know, MrP, I know...I wish I were buying a car...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56326Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56326paco20045http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56326http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56326.xmlJim Thank you for the kind comment. Now I feel I got somehow confident in understanding the grammar of 'wish' + (past subjunctive). I've still another question about this. I heard that we could use the past subjunctive for any tense of 'wish'. So if it is true, I think we can say like; (1) Before I got married to George, I had wished if I were Jack's wife. (2) If I get married to George, I will soon wish if I were Jack's wife. Do you think my understanding is OK? pacohttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56307Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56307CalifJim6http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56307http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56307.xmlI find your observations completely clear and uncontroversial. It is, of course, the "every Sunday" and the "a week" in "I wish I went to church every Sunday" and "I wish I bought more than two magazines a week" which create the necessary imperfective aspect.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56305Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56305CalifJim7http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56305http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56305.xmlRipley, You have opened an area of inquiry that would take weeks or even months to explore thoroughly, so I will not be taking you up on the challenge! But I think you are on to something there. It appears there are certain kinds of expressions (like statives) that don't work well in the context of "... wish ... would ...". However, absent the "wish", "would" can certainly be used with any kind of verb: I would be foolish not to agree with the boss. Paul would buy that coat if he had the money. CJhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56248Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56248ripley8http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56248http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56248.xmlThanks a lot for patecipating in the discussion.. Rip.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56229Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56229paco20049http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56229http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56229.xmlHi Ripley You raised a very interesting question and I think Jim's answers were great. My way to understand about the "I wish + past subjunctive" construction is like this. When you use a construction of "I wish + past subjunctive", you are expressing your regret that you are NOW not in the STATE you want to be in. When you speak "I wish I were a bird" , your regret is that you are currently not in the state of "I am a bird". When you speak "I wish I knew French" , your regret is that you are not in the state of "I know French." I think you can say "I wish I spoke French" , because it is possible to suppose a state of "I speak French" (English speakers sometimes use the verb "speak" in a stative sense to mean "be able to speak...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56190Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56190ripley10http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56190http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56190.xmlBy the way....., am I also right when I say that "the weather would be nice" ist probably wrong because it is due to the fact that the verb be is a stative verb and perhaps you use would only with active verbs???? I'd like just to know if I justified the phenomen in the right way...(Would: only with active verbs??????; is it correct? You told me only about the fact that the weather isn't a person ( so you can distinguish the categories animated inanimated) but I'd like to know if the difference between active and stative verbs is also a reason not to use would in this case and in general. Thanks. Hope to hear from you soon. Rip.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56189Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56189ripley11http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56189http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56189.xmlHi Jim, I'm very pleased to know I got it right about "could" and "would"; what about my introduction. Am I right when I say: Hi Jim, thanks for your reply. Please, tell me if I got it rightI can use the simple past (which is actually a past subjunctive) only with verbs with an imperfective aspect ( love, live, have, be), that is stative verbs or verbs which express habitual actions (It's not very simple to distinguish these two categories for me...) Therefore I cannot say I wish I bought ( because the verb buy has perfective aspect; and what's more many people could understand I wish I had bought..) Thanks a lot bye. Rip. : Dhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56136Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56136CalifJim12http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/5/gmkc/Post.htm#56136http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56136.xmlYou're right about "I wish I could buy ...". "could" is used this way all the time. You're also right that wish+would can imply irritation, and probably usually does, but the degree of irritation can be strong or mild or anything in between, depending on the context. Consider that we usually are a bit irritated when we want someone to do something - when we think they should be doing it - and (Remember that these propositions are all counterfactual) they have certainly not been doing it. "I wish the weather would be nice" is definitely not the thing to say! In the ears of a native speaker it is too close a parallel with "I wish you would be nice"! It seems to treat the weather as an animate being. It invites the listener to think in...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#56053Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:56053ripley13http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#56053http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-56053.xmlHi Jim, thanks for your reply. Please, tell me if I got it right :s I can use the simple past (which is actually a past subjunctive) only with verbs with an imperfective aspect ( love, live, have, be), that is stative verbs or verbs which express habitual actions (It's not very simple to distinguish these two categories for me...) Therefore I cannot say I wish I bought ( because the verb buy has perfective aspect; and what's more many people could understand I wish I had bought..) but I can say I wish I could buy.. ( because the modal probably expresses an imperfective aspect..) Am I right? I have another doubt anyway. you told me about the construction with would and in your examples you use it as it were a "neutral form" , as a...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#55992Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:55992CalifJim14http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#55992http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-55992.xmlFirst, let me make a few observations. 1. All wishes are counterfactual. It makes no sense to wish for what you already have. The Queen of England does not say, "I wish I were the Queen of England". If I am six feet tall, I do not say, "I wish I were six feet tall". So every wish is a wish for something to be different from what we know it to be. 2. "wish" is a little strange in the way it affects the interpretation of the tense forms in the proposition which follows it. Specifically, to express a wish about the present, the simple past* is used; to express a wish about the past, the past perfect* is used. 3. The present tense cannot express the perfective aspect of a verb, that is, it cannot express a finished punctual action....http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#55928Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:55928ripley15http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#55928http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-55928.xmlDear Jim, I have a very big problem. I' m not sure if the following sentences are correct.. I know that the wish structure requires a simple past, usually were, had and modals such as could. But what happen if I need to use other verbs such as go, buy and so on; Is it possible to say I wish I bought a moped ( with the same meaning of I wish I could buy) or I wish I went to London; I wish you studied more; I wish I lived in the countryside? In these cases I want to refer to a present situation and not to the past ( otherwise I would have used the past perfect..) am I correct? If not, can you tell me why? Thanks a lot. Rip.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#51272Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:51272Klavier16http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#51272http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-51272.xmlHi, I think I'm more clear now, and I have to learn subjunctive just as it is, without the informal 'noise' for the 3º person, thanks a lot for this explanation. By the way I asked a question because in a book of Cambridge University Press, the author gives these examples: They recommended that he should give up writing. They recommended that he give up writing (more formal) They recommended that he gives up writing (less formal). I just thought that the third sentence could be a best way for learning, but now I know the subtle meanings. thanks.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#50600Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:50600MrPedantic17http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#50600http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-50600.xmlHello Latin Those sentences are quite formal in structure. This means they sound incongruous when you insert an 'informal' zone in the middle. It's like wearing jeans with a tuxedo. An easier way of avoiding the subjunctive is to change the idiom. For instance, native BrE speakers seldom use direct equivalents of 'que + subjunctive', except in very boring memos to each other at work. Instead, they use constructions like this: 'They said she had to go with them.' 'The boy will have to stay in the school grounds till his parents get here.' 'He must be here on time tomorrow.' 'We want him to be able to do what he likes.' 'They told her to write and accept the offer.' 'The king ordered the man's release.' MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#50593Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:50593Mister Micawber18http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#50593http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-50593.xmlWithout getting into this discussion myself (my Spanish is limited to 'buenos dias'), I will tell you that your 'informal' sentences are too wrong to teach; you will hear some of them, but their use even in spoken English is nonstandard at best.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#50587Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:50587Klavier19http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#50587http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-50587.xmlHi Miriam (I hope any moderator can answer this question if Miriam is not available). Great thread, it's very useful. I guess even teachers and linguistics and native speakers have huge problems understanding the subjunctive. Well my question is: at the beginning of the teaching of english is it possible to leave out the subjunctive for spanish speakers? I mean this mood only changes for 3º person, there isn't a change of the root of the verb itself, so taking your examples: >> "They insisted that she go with them." >> "It is vital that the boy remain in the school grounds until his parents arrive." "It is necessary that he be here on time tomorrow" "We wish that he do what he pleases." "Thdey urged that she write and accept the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#50239Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:50239Guest20http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#50239http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-50239.xmlMiriam, I see that your last post on this thread wasn't so long ago, so I thought I'd throw in one more question. Are there any cases where one uses the conditional tense without the subjunctive mood? Or are all uses of the conditional considered subjunctive, because the nature of the conditional indicates something that is "contrary to fact?" -Chrishttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#47963Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:47963miriam21http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/4/gmkc/Post.htm#47963http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-47963.xmlHi, Jim. You may no longer remember this thread, but I will still post a response. I haven't been around lately, that's why I haven't answered so far. 1. I have no comments about this point. And then, I tend to agree with grammar books! 2. There IS a difference between the imperative and the subjunctive moods; each mood (indicative, imperative, etc.) is different from the others. Even when the same verb form may be used for different moods, the meaning is still different. "Please, live long, King" is different from the explanation I posted (May the king live long). The sentence with "please" is a sentence in the imperative mood (in form, but not in meaning because you wouldn't "command" a person to live), while the sentence...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43345Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:43345CalifJim22http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43345http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-43345.xmlHi, Miriam! Thanks so much for your reply. Of course I'm still interested! 1. Sometimes when examples are given, certain forms begin to sound more acceptable. Strangely enough, only your example with "wish" still seems weird to me! The other two don't really sound that formal to me. I can imagine reading them in a newspaper from time to time. I need to revise my opinion slightly. 2. Well, God is a special case! -- as is the Queen, I suppose! But note that a command is still a command, even when we are extra polite and say "please". Please open the door, Oscar. Please save the Queen, God. Please live long, King. OK. Maybe I'm stretching it a bit with these paraphrases, but the form of the mandative subjunctive is the same as...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43331Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:43331miriam23http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43331http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-43331.xmlHello, Jim I've been away from the boards lately. I'm not sure you're still interested in my response, but here it goes: 1. I'm afraid I can't tell how often verbs like "wish" are used in the mandative subjunctive. It seems they are used, though, according to my books. Here are a few examples: "We wish that he do what he pleases." "Thdey urged that she write and accept the post." ""The King ordered that the man be released." I don't know if the above forms are used often and in what contexts, or how formal they are (they sound too formal to me!). Perhaps your comment -as a native speaker- about the use of these verbs in the mandative subjunctive means that those verbs in particular are actually rare in this type of...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43223Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:43223PASTEL24http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43223http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-43223.xmlHi, Jim How are you? Thank you for keeping an eye on this thread. I just love it so much because I have never seen any forum that explains all kinds of 'moods' clearly. If you have chance to browse other other language forums, you'll see learners set off firecrackers into the sky without any clear direction. I mean you can see almost every forum has 'subjunctive' subjects but none of them have fully explanation. In this thread, however, you've seen that Miriam had gathered all kinds of 'Moods' within one thread which is really amazing!!! Miriam is cool. Here are my humble points of view regarding your previous question, this was to Pastel. I am amazed at what ESL students have to go through on these tests. I'm not sure...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43067Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:43067CalifJim25http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43067http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-43067.xmlThe use of "should" vs. "would" depending on person is somewhat controversial, actually. One side of the debate claims that such a distinction never really existed in the English language until some seventeenth century grammarian *made it up*!!! --- literally *invented* the rule!!! I should think that if one were to use "should" in such a studied manner in the U.S., one would be looked upon as a speaker of Modern Pedantic. If I were to obtain the money, I should buy a mansion forthwith. (U.S. reaction: ARGHH!) It could be quite common and unobjectionable in Britain. I don't know.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43065Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:43065CalifJim26http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43065http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-43065.xmlHi, Miriam. I have a few questions. I would appreciate your comments on them when you have the time. (It's nothing urgent. I don't want to interrupt your dialog with Pastel.) 1. > Did you really intend to include the verbs "wish", "order", and "urge"? They are the only ones in the list that my "native-speaker ear" doesn't seem to accept, especially "wish". Are these (below with the ??) considered acceptable? Are they considered formal? My ear may be rejecting them because they are used so seldom. Could that be? I wish that he go. ?? I wish that he would go. ?? I demand that he go. I order that he go. ?? I order him to go. I suggest that he go. I propose that she go. I recommend that she go. I urge...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43052Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:43052Guest27http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#43052http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-43052.xmlI have seen this a lot on this forum, and I simply had to say something. NEVER use "would" with first person. I have seen several people say "I WOULD say this....". Always use "should" with the first person, when you would normally use "would".http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#38999Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38999miriam28http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#38999http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38999.xml"If you are a professional singer, I'm Pavarotti." I didn't know my singing was so terrible! ~chuckles~ Your sentence is grammatically correct, and it makes perfect sense as well. To me, it is also the best choice in the context you mentioned. Your second sentence is also grammatically correct. Strictly speaking, sentences of the type of "If you were a professional singer, I'd be Pavarotti" imply a "probable condition" (like your sentence about watering the flower). That is, there is a possibility -even when it might be a remote one- that the condition in the "if-clause" may become true. And, if that happens, then, most probably, what is stated in the main clause will be/become true too. So your sentence means that *if* I...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#38993Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38993miriam29http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#38993http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38993.xmlYou are welcome, Pastel. I think you got the meaning of my post, yes. But there's a strange mix of grammatical terminology in your post! (Have I mentioned lately that you sometimes drive me crazy? ~L~) Let's take the sentence "If he ate more, he would gain weight." We agree that it is a conditional sentence. Now, there is not such a thing as a "first condition" or "a second condition" in it. The sentence has a main clause, "he would gain weight", and a conditional clause (dependent or subordinate clause), "if he ate more". You say that in your example "but" is not subjunctive. I say that "but" can be several things (conjunction, adverb, preposition), but it is never "subjunctive" regardless of where or how you use it. It is...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#38928Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38928PASTEL30http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/3/gmkc/Post.htm#38928http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38928.xmlIf you are a professional singer, I'm Pavarotti. I'm mulling over this sentence. I'd say this is grammatically wrong, but it doesn't sound bad. The purpose of the speaker to utter this sentence is to make fun of somebody, so it's obvious that someone is not a professional singer in true. It's more correct to say "If you were a professional singer, I would be Pavarotti." I think I could be wrong. Please comment. Thanks. Pastelhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38920Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38920PASTEL31http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38920http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38920.xmlThank you very much, dear Miriam. The following is my comcomprehension after reading your post. If there is any misunderstanding, please correct me. A: "Has he gained weight?" B: "He would gain weight, but he _____ much." (1)doesn't eat (2)didn't eat The the first part of the answer, "He would gain weight", functions as 1st condition as a conditional sentence in "If he ate much, he would gain weight." But here in my example, 'but' is not subjunctive at all, it simply is a conjunction. So I should use "indicative mood" to describe a general fact that "he doesn't eat much." The structure is similiar with my second example. In true, I didn't water those flowers, so they didn't grow well. In other words, if I had watered those...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38706Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38706miriam32http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38706http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38706.xmlHello, Pastel. I'll try to answer your questions; let me know if you need clarification? Your first question: A: "Has he gained weight?" B: "He would gain weight, but he _____ much." (1)doesn't eat (2)didn't eat Without a context, with the short exchange as it is, the right answer is 1). B is, in the end, saying that "he" hasn't gained weight: he doesn't eat much; he would gain wait if he ate more. Now, if you choose 2), we would have a problem. ~L~ There are few cases when you can use a conditional in both clauses in a sentence -a conditional sentence. But your sentence isn't one of those, not in form. Also, "didn't eat" won't have "subjunctive" meaning in your example. Your second question: A: What happened to...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38357Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38357PASTEL33http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38357http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38357.xmlIt is strange that you _____ say such a thing. (1)would (2)should The answer is (2). Mine is (1). It dealt with the willingness of a person to say such a thing. I think 'should' is so strong that it forms one type of request or order. So I consider it not suitable. But obvious, I'm wrong. Erm...frustrated, I need you. The questions I have are from TOEFL. I decided to put them under this subject instead of seperating them into different threads becuase I think they belong to subcategories of 'Mood.' I'd like to keep the thread as simple and clear as possible for further tracing in the future. I look forward to your answers. Thank you in advance.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38352Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38352PASTEL34http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38352http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38352.xmlA: Tell the nurse you've been waiting an hour. B: Not now...She's talking to a patient. _________ (1) Interrupt her would be rude. (2) It would be rude to interrupt. The answer is (2) I want to know what's wrong with (1). Should I make the verb a gerund?http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38350Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38350PASTEL35http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38350http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38350.xmlA: What happened to the flower I gave you? B: The flower _____ well, but I did not water it. (1)would have grown (2)should have grown The answer is (1). I chose (2) but I don't know how to explain. I chose the answer intuively because I would say the meaning of 'should' is similiar to this one, "He should be there." Would you please help?http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38348Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38348PASTEL36http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38348http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38348.xmlA: "Has he gained weight?" B: "He would gain weight, but he _____ much." (1)doesn't eat (2)didn't eat The asnwer is (1). But I chose (2) because I think it is the first condition. In true, he doesn't eat much. So the clause following 'but' should be in subjuntive mood.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38254Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38254miriam37http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38254http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38254.xmlThat's what I meant, Pastel! In the second sentence, the person will close the window, probably, on their way our, not when they are out. You're most welcome. Miriamhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38108Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38108PASTEL38http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38108http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38108.xmlThis is my comprehension after reading your post: The first sentence implied some uncertainty of going out or not, and whether to close the window or not depends on his going out, whereas the second one is of certain that the person will go out in a future time and thus he'll close the window when he's out. I hope I don't get you wrong. Thank you, Miriam.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38065Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:38065miriam39http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/2/gmkc/Post.htm#38065http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-38065.xmlHello, Pastel. In the first sentence, it is possible that that you will go out (I don't think we can say 50-50 or measure it really). If you do, you will close the window then. But, if you don't go out, the window will remain open. In the second sentence you are sure you will close the window; you will do it when you go out. Your going out is more than just a possibility here: you know you will go out (or you have decided you will go out), and that's when you will close the window. In the first sentence, you haven't made up your mind about going out yet, and since your closing the window depends on that, it's not possible to be sure what will happen. In the second, you will close the window, just not now. But it is only a...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#37958Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:37958PASTEL40http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#37958http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-37958.xmlCould you tell me the differences here? Are you going out later? (1) Yeah, if I go out, I'll close the window. (2) Yeah, when I go out, I'll cloase the window. For the first sentence, I would say it is possible that I will go out, but I'm not sure.(Fifth-fifty) For the second one, I think the possibility of going out is more than fifty percent. But then is it one kind of zero condition? Am I wrong?http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36592Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:36592miriam41http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36592http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-36592.xmlThank you, Dave. I'm not sure I know the right answers to all your questions, but I'll try. I wouldn't say that the English language does not have a "true" subjunctive mood. Perhaps it's only that it is not so 'developed', so to speak, as, say, the indicative mood, in the sense that it does not have its own verb forms. That's why the subjunctive 'borrows' froms from indicative verb tenses and also why subjunctive meaning is conveyed by means of the use of other structures (such as "should" and the "to-infinitive"). This is a personal opinion, but I don't think that means it is not a "true" subjunctive. What I don't know is why the subjunctive forms (the "marked" subjunctive) are considered so formal. It must be true, though,...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36531Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:36531taiwandave42http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36531http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-36531.xmlI had never really understood the subjunctive until I read this. Great post, Miriam. By the way, some people seem to refer to the subjunctive as being "rarely used" in English. Yet from reading the above, it is clearly used all the time. I also remember reading somewhere (I can't remember where - on the Internet, I think) that the English language doesn't have a "true" subjunctive. Is there some sort of debate regarding the subjunctive? Why is it such a poorly-taught and poorly-understood area of English grammar?http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36468Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:36468miriam43http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36468http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-36468.xmlI've posted this in another thread: would + base form of verb = simple conditional (would go) would + have + past participle = perfect conditional (would have gone) Both are usually seen in conditional sentences Types II and III. Type II: "If it started to rain now, I would stay at home." Type III: "If it had rained yesterday, I would have stayed at home." In both types of conditional sentences, the conditionals appear in the main clause, and the "if" clause (or conditional clause) takes a verb either in the simple past or the past perfect. Now, I've used the names of these two tenses only to indicate the form the verb takes, not to indicate meaning . Thse verbs in the conditional form are called instances of the "unmarked"...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36269Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:36269miriam44http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36269http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-36269.xmlPlease have a look at the 8th post in this thread for the difference between the subjunctive mood and conditional constructions: http://www.englishforums.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=35602 I'll write more later if I have time. Miriamhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36182Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:36182verbalicious45http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#36182http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-36182.xmlI'm sorry, but aren't you guys talking about the conditional, not the subjunctive. I thought that the subjunctive was a formal way of speaking: >> We recommend that all staff acknowledge receipt of this memo. >> They insisted that we go with them. >> It is vital that children remain in the school grounds until their parents arrive. The conditional expresses a wish or condition that is contrary to fact, as described above. In some cases the conditional is also a form of the subjunctive: >> He wishes he were here with you. And, as to the original posting, i think to 'subjunctify' it, you would say: >>I did not think that she would go. Does anyone agree, or am I totally off the mark?http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#33213Thu, 21 May 2009 14:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:33213taiwandave46http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#33213http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-33213.xmlWe use "think" in the past simple or past perfect tense to indicate a belief that was previously held but that has been shown to be incorrect. For example: I didn't think she was going. (past simple) I had thought that she wasn't going. (past perfect) The exception is in converting from direct to reported speech: "I think he's a terrible teacher," she said. (direct speech) She said that she thought he was a terrible teacher. (reported speech) In the above, her opinion has not changed. The verb "think" is used in the past tense because we customarily switch from present simple to past simple when changing from direct speech to reported speech. The subjunctive mood is used to express a wish or to describe a condition that...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#33209Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:33209Rocketeer47http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htm#33209http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-33209.xml"I didn't think she was going" is correct because it is not an example of the subjunctive mood in English. The subjunctive mood is used when the sentence expresses a thought contrary to reality. "If I were king..." (I'm not the king.) "If I were you..." (I'm not you.) The sentence "I didn't think she was going." does not express an idea that is contrary to reality. It's (presumably) true that you didn't think she was going. I think I got this right. Tomhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htmWed, 21 Jan 2009 15:28:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:33118Guest48http://www.englishforums.com/English/Subjunctive/gmkc/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments31-33118.xmlI know how to use the subjunctive well, I would say, by most peoples' standards. However, I am at a loss when I encounter this particular phrase: "I didn't think she was going." Does the "I didn't think" trigger the subjunctive? Should it read, "I didn't think she were going" ? I know in the Romance languages the subjunctive is appropriate here. Thanks for your help, Bill