http://www.englishforums.com/English/LinguisticsDiscussionForum/Forum35.htmGet into the nitty-gritty of the language.enXMOD (Build: 3616.28671)http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/2/vgkrw/Post.htm#367316Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:367316milky0http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/2/vgkrw/Post.htm#367316http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-367316.xml<As we discussed earlier, respect and acceptance of social distance aren't the only interpretations. Cf.> Indeed not, but we shouldn't leave those things out of the equation.http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/2/vgkrw/Post.htm#367300Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:367300MrPedantic1http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/2/vgkrw/Post.htm#367300http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-367300.xmlWell, I've no doubt there are such students; but there are many others who haven't been told to use the past form to their professors (no one told me, for instance). As we discussed earlier, respect and acceptance of social distance aren't the only interpretations. Cf. #2 sounds more polite to me; it might indicate deference, tentativeness, or condescension. Plus unobtrusiveness, etc. Or cunning, when you want to usher someone towards a particular decision. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#367297Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:367297milky2http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#367297http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-367297.xml<The more oblique "I wanted..." would not have that effect: the speaker is distancing himself from the "wanting".> And those students who've been taught to use the oblique form in such contacts with professors, have been told it is out of respect. There, it seems nothing to do with what the speaker wants to, personally, express. I think urgency can be expressed by either form, but the "wanted to" shows respect, or acceptance of social (professional) distance.http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#367288Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:367288MrPedantic3http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#367288http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-367288.xmlIf I were the professor, and the student said, "I want to speak to you", I would take it as an expression of urgency, aggression, etc., depending on the context; or it might simply be the habit of a particularly direct student. I think all the interpretations would have "unceremoniousness" in common, though. The more oblique "I wanted..." would not have that effect: the speaker is distancing himself from the "wanting". It wouldn't necessarily reflect any real closeness or distance between the professor and the student, though: the "direct" student might be a stranger, and the "oblique" student an old familiar who understood his professor's liking for obliqueness. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#367285Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:367285milky4http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#367285http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-367285.xml<Yes, that's true. But I think I see the distance/closeness as what the speaker wants to express, rather than what the distance/closeness really is.> If a student goes to his/her university professor and says "I want to speak you", what would the speaker be wanting to express? What would it be if the same student were to say "I wanted to speak to you" instead? Could the student say "I will want to speak to you tomorrow", or would it be normal for the professor to say that?http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#367230Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:367230MrPedantic5http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#367230http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-367230.xmlMilky wrote: <Perhaps "the more distant" and "the closer" the speaker perceives the relationship to be.> But many relationships are factually/literally distant. Yes, that's true. But I think I see the distance/closeness as what the speaker wants to express, rather than what the distance/closeness really is. (That then allows for the discourtesy of extreme politeness to a close relative, for instance.) <#2 sounds more polite to me; it might indicate deference, tentativeness, or condescension.> Would you add unobtrusiveness to that list? Yes indeed; and "modesty", "humility", etc.http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#366996Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:366996milky6http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#366996http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-366996.xmlForbes wrote: I can't answer that as I don't know what the writer means by a "remote form" or a "proximate form" nor what "utterances" or "specific kinds of messages" are being referred to. "Encoder" and "decoder"? Does he mean "speaker" and "listener"? Remote forms would be such things as past tense verbs and demonsratives that express distance (that, there, etc.) and proximate form would be such things as present tense verbs and demonsratives that express closeness (this, here, etc.). Utterances mentined in the text above are in Hebrew, but English examples would be something like the difference between these: Can you come tomorrow?/Could you come tomorrow? Do you want a drink?/Would you like a drink? Do me...http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#366986Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:366986milky7http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#366986http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-366986.xml<Perhaps "the more distant" and "the closer" the speaker perceives the relationship to be.> But many relationships are factually/literally distant. I agree with your examples above. <#2 sounds more polite to me; it might indicate deference, tentativeness, or condescension.> Would you add unobtrusiveness to that list?http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#366795Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:366795MrPedantic8http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#366795http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-366795.xmlI'm not sure about the absolutes. Perhaps "the more distant" and "the closer" the speaker perceives the relationship to be. 1. What if you give him a call? (proximate) 2. What if you were to give him a call? (remote) #2 sounds more polite to me; it might indicate deference, tentativeness, or condescension. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#366773Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:366773Forbes9http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htm#366773http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-366773.xmlI can't answer that as I don't know what the writer means by a "remote form" or a "proximate form" nor what "utterances" or "specific kinds of messages" are being referred to. "Encoder" and "decoder"? Does he mean "speaker" and "listener"?http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htmSat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:38 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:366460milky10http://www.englishforums.com/English/RemotenessVersusProximity/vgkrw/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-366460.xmlThis is from the book "From Sign to Text: A Semiotic View of Communication By Yishai Tobin". Talking about Hebrew: "the extra-linguistic contexts between the encoder and decoder (e.g. the social and professional distance between them) may also influence the choice of tense used in these utterances: the more distant the relationship, the more likely a remote form will be used to convey these specific kinds of messages; while the closer the relationship, the more likely a proximate form will be deemed acceptable or appropriate." I think the same goes for English usage. What do you think?