ESL Linguistics Discussion Forum

Re: used to/did

milky — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:07:04 GMT

dÅn (irreg.) do, act, cause, put, place â ger. dÅnne â pres. part. dÅnde â 2nd sg. dÄst â 3rd sg. dÄÃ° â 2nd pl. dÅÃ° â 3rd pl. dÅÃ° â imp. 2nd sg. dÅ â opt. 2nd sg. dÅ â 1st pl. dÅn â pret. 2nd sg. dydest â 3rd sg. dyde â 3rd pl. dydon â pret. opt. 3rd sg. dyde

Re: used to/did

milky — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:58:28 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

I suspect that "would" preceded "used to", in ordinary usage. I don't have a pre-1300 example to hand; but the form is well established in Chaucer, e.g.

"She was so charitable and so pitous,
She wolde wepe, if that she sawe a mous
Caught in a trappe, if it were deed or bledde."

MrP

No need for a pre-1300 example, would dates back to bef 900.

Re: used to/did

MrPedantic — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:12:15 GMT

I suspect that "would" preceded "used to", in ordinary usage. I don't have a pre-1300 example to hand; but the form is well established in Chaucer, e.g.

"She was so charitable and so pitous,
She wolde wepe, if that she sawe a mous
Caught in a trappe, if it were deed or bledde."

MrP

Re: used to/did

milky — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:38:43 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

I think the problem is that suggestions in Modern English may not meet the case; or may not seem to meet the case, because they'll be assessed in terms of Modern English. That's why I wondered whether you had any authentic examples.

(I've looked for some pre-1300 examples with the structure "I did love her so", but haven't found any so far.)

MrP

Mr P, let me get this straight, are you saying that "used to" was not previously "did" and "was"? If so, what was the form that preceded "used to"?

BTW, "For ryche men vse comunly Sweryn grete othys grysly."

Re: used to/did

MrPedantic — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:00:00 GMT

I think the problem is that suggestions in Modern English may not meet the case; or may not seem to meet the case, because they'll be assessed in terms of Modern English. That's why I wondered whether you had any authentic examples.

(I've looked for some pre-1300 examples with the structure "I did love her so", but haven't found any so far.)

MrP

Re: used to/did

milky — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:36:47 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

what's your take on the thread question regarding the negative form of "I did (didst) love her so"?

Well, I think we would need some authentic examples, to answer that question. Pre-1300 Middle English is quite different from Modern English; here is a characteristic utterance from Sawles Warde, for instance:

1. Fearlac hire ontswereÃ°: "Ich nat nawt Ã¾e time, for ha ne seide hit me nawt; ah eauer lokiÃ° hwenne, for hire wune is to cumen bi stale ferliche ant unmundlunge hwen me least weneÃ°. Of hire hird Ã¾et tu easkest, Ich Ã¾e ondswerie: ha lihteÃ° hwer se ha eauer kimeÃ° wiÃ° a Ã¾usent deoflen, ant euchan bereÃ° a gret boc al of sunnen iwriten wiÃ° swarte smeale leattres, ant an unrude raketehe gledread of furc, forte binden ant to drahen into inwarde helle hwuch se he mei preouin Ã¾urh his boc, Ã¾et is on euch sunne enbreuet Ã¾et he wiÃ° wil oÃ°er wiÃ° word oÃ°er wiÃ° werc wrahtte in al his lif-siÃ°e, bute Ã¾et he haueÃ° ibet earÃ¾on wiÃ° soÃ° schrift ant wiÃ° deadbote."

MrP

And that's only one example of many scribal styles of the period. But what is your question here, Mr P? Not sure where you wish to go.

Re: used to/did

MrPedantic — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:01:51 GMT

what's your take on the thread question regarding the negative form of "I did (didst) love her so"?

Well, I think we would need some authentic examples, to answer that question. Pre-1300 Middle English is quite different from Modern English; here is a characteristic utterance from Sawles Warde, for instance:

1. Fearlac hire ontswereÃ°: "Ich nat nawt Ã¾e time, for ha ne seide hit me nawt; ah eauer lokiÃ° hwenne, for hire wune is to cumen bi stale ferliche ant unmundlunge hwen me least weneÃ°. Of hire hird Ã¾et tu easkest, Ich Ã¾e ondswerie: ha lihteÃ° hwer se ha eauer kimeÃ° wiÃ° a Ã¾usent deoflen, ant euchan bereÃ° a gret boc al of sunnen iwriten wiÃ° swarte smeale leattres, ant an unrude raketehe gledread of furc, forte binden ant to drahen into inwarde helle hwuch se he mei preouin Ã¾urh his boc, Ã¾et is on euch sunne enbreuet Ã¾et he wiÃ° wil oÃ°er wiÃ° word oÃ°er wiÃ° werc wrahtte in al his lif-siÃ°e, bute Ã¾et he haueÃ° ibet earÃ¾on wiÃ° soÃ° schrift ant wiÃ° deadbote."

MrP

Re: used to/did

milky — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:04:55 GMT

And what would be the negative of this?

He was wont to say that if he had read as much as other men he should have known no more than other men.

Re: used to/did

milky — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:55:22 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:
Milky wrote:

Which period of ME are you thinking of? As I understand it, I'm talking abou pre-1300.

Well, that would be Early ME.

Do you have any pre-1300 examples of this usage?

MrP

Not to hand. Do you have any pre-1300 examples of "used to"? BTW; what's your take on the thread question regarding the negative form of "I did (didst) love her so"?

Re: used to/did

MrPedantic — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:44:50 GMT

Milky wrote:

Which period of ME are you thinking of? As I understand it, I'm talking abou pre-1300.

Well, that would be Early ME.

Do you have any pre-1300 examples of this usage?

MrP

Re: used to/did

milky — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:18:05 GMT

Forbes wrote:
I never did love her so? or I did never love her so?

That sounds like a comment on the present stae of a relationship, IMO.

Re: used to/did

Forbes — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:55:33 GMT

I never did love her so? or I did never love her so?

Re: used to/did

milky — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:59:57 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

Is that indeed the "older form", Milky? I was under the impression that "use to" in that sense dated back at least to ME.

MrP

Which period of ME are you thinking of? As I understand it, I'm talking abou pre-1300.

Re: used to/did

MrPedantic — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:19:57 GMT

Is that indeed the "older form", Milky? I was under the impression that "use to" in that sense dated back at least to ME.

MrP

Re: used to/did

milky — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:54:28 GMT

Doll wrote:

Once I did love her so= Once I loved her so. First sentence just emphasize the verb.

I would write the negative form like this: Once I didn't love her so.( Of course it sounds weird semantically.)

Thanks; Doll, but I was asking how it WAS written or said in the past, and not how you would say it.