ESL Linguistics Discussion Forum

Re: Comes in colours.

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:15:55 GMT

CalifJim wrote:
In AmE you can probably "get by" without ever using shall, whom, or may.

CJ

Or even "gonna" and "wanna".

Re: Comes in colours.

CalifJim — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:00:07 GMT

In AmE you can probably "get by" without ever using shall, whom, or may.

CJ

Re: Comes in colours.

MrPedantic — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:31:59 GMT

Alan.es wrote:

Let's not argue about the disappearance of shall from the English language. It will be with us for many years yet but its use in everyday English has declined enormously already. The same is true for whom.

Yes; I used to think that "shall" was quite unusual, in BrE, except in questions, and only to be found in certain contexts; but once you begin to listen out for it, it turns up surprisingly often.

MrP

Re: Comes in colours.

Alan.es — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 11:34:49 GMT

Yes, I'll and we'll are contractions of I shall and we shall.

Yes, teaching whom does irritate me a little but it's not tested as much so minor irritation only.

I accept and use shall in my own conversations and writing but then I learned my grammar when you couldn't end a sentence with a preposition nor could you split an infinitive.

Google is very useful but I don't accept its use as a means of proof for correct usage in English.

Let's not argue about the disappearance of shall from the English language. It will be with us for many years yet but its use in everyday English has declined enormously already.

The same is true for whom.

Re: Comes in colours.

Anonymous — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:36:05 GMT

<<'I'll' and 'we'll' are used in the affirmative even in written English so avoiding the use of 'shall'.>>

Are "I'll" and "we'll" contractions of "I will" and " we will" there?

Re: Comes in colours.

Anonymous — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:32:31 GMT

<<It's irritated me for some years that it's been necessary to teach 'shall' only for the examinations. However it is now being accepted that it is an old usage. >>

Do you still teach "whom"? If you do, does it irritate you having to do that?

British National Corpus:

WHOM - 12,596 PER MILLION WORDS

SHALL - 19,814 PER MILLION WORDS

http://corpus.byu.edu/bnc/

Re: Comes in colours.

Anonymous — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:25:23 GMT

Alan.es wrote:
As a native speaker of BrE teaching in Spain, I support Barbara's ideas. Most BrE English speakers never use 'shall' except for a few who use it for making a suggestion such as,"Shall we go?" .

Usage of "shall" in BrE:

SHALL - 19,814 per million words. That's quite a high figure

Beyond "Shall we go?".

We shall + verb:

WE SHALL SEE 928

WE SHALL BE 575

WE SHALL HAVE 365

WE SHALL CONSIDER 123

WE SHALL RETURN 120

WE SHALL LOOK 103

WE SHALL DO 67

WE SHALL GO 43

WE SHALL CONCENTRATE 21

WE SHALL INTRODUCE 12

WE SHALL LOSE 12

WE SHALL ADOPT 11

http://corpus.byu.edu/bnc/

<<It's irritated me for some years that it's been necessary to teach 'shall' only for the examinations. >>

If you don't teach it, how will your students understand all these sentences and more, similar ones?

1. , my answer is that I have told you before and I shall go on telling you, and you know perfectly well what it

2. you know when that time has actually arrived. So I shall go when people rather wished I stayed in a way. But

3. come my way. I find them extremely depressing but I shall go on slogging away until my term as chairman ends in the

4. state of wanton neglect," she said. "I shall go out this afternoon and make a start on the borders.

5. be far gone, it must be almost morning, I shall go downstairs and make myself a first pot of tea. But

6. have assigned myself for each one of my undertakings. I shall go even further: my freedom will be so much the greater

7. I don't know what to say to you. I shall go mad or die of a decline. The very recollection of

8. thinking of opening out like a flower. 2. I shall go to antenatal classes where I shall nourish my obsession for natural

9. If you make me leave the table, Hughie, I shall go straight down into the kitchen. I always find good company

10. your kindness and favour." Rameshwar answered, "I shall go home no more but will make my home forever at your

11. . "Yes," my father said, "I shall go and take you two girls if you are fit to be

12. her the double bladed paddle as she continued, "I shall go down as far as Browns Mill, so could you possibly

13. believe that, with the first change in fortune, I shall go back to Carlotta. Sometimes I think you suspect me of

14. ." "No," said Nicholas. "I shall go, then. But there are some orders I should like

15. level. "How?" he said. "I shall go back and prepare an assault," Nicholas said. &bquo;

16. In some cases, where I have personal experience, I shall go into the depth of the technical details. However, I

17. Tamar rose from the table, she remarked, "I shall go out for a ride, Mama." Her mother-in-law raised

18. , suddenly standing, beautiful as a lily. "I shall go back to my weaving. The pattern may be complicated but

19. "I can't stand much more of this. I shall go soon." The 68-year-old Peregrine Worsthorne appears yet again,

20. his good intentions. "As to that, madam, I shall go further," he said gallantly, whereupon he unfastened his

I wouldn't put "shall" to bed just yet, Alan.

Re: Comes in colours.

Avangi — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:45:16 GMT

Anonymous wrote:

(again, for MollyB.)

>Jespersen has said that, when referring to the future, "will" is often coloured by an element of volition and "shall" by obligation. Joos has said that "be going to" seems to be the only uncoloured futue English has.

Do you think Jespersen and Joos are right?<

The quote is " . . . . is often coloured by an element of . . . ." Why does it have to be black and white? (Their names are funny too.) If it weren't for colouring, connotative meaning would be lost to poetry.

Edit. Hi Alan.es,

As a high school junior I got every example wrong on a quiz about the subjunctive. The teacher refused to review it. (I don't think he got it either!) I should have seen the handwriting on the wall. Now that [I think] I understand it - and like it - people give me nasty looks when I use it. (I'm an old user.)

Re: Comes in colours.

Alan.es — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:14:40 GMT

As a native speaker of BrE teaching in Spain, I support Barbara's ideas. Most BrE English speakers never use 'shall' except for a few who use it for making a suggestion such as, "Shall we go?" 'I'll' and 'we'll' are used in the affirmative even in written English so avoiding the use of 'shall'. 'Won't' is used in the negative.

It's irritated me for some years that it's been necessary to teach 'shall' only for the examinations. However it is now being accepted that it is an old usage.

Colour is aded by tone of voice whether you use will, shall or going to. Examination questions set by non-native speakers are often ambiguous when they try to test the different usages.

Re: Comes in colours.

Tanit — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 09:55:01 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:
I very much expect that if you surveyed 1000 Americans about the difference between "I shall" and "I will," well over 950 of them will say something like "Ummm.... is shall British, maybe?"

Hi Barbara,

Thanks for your answer. I forgot to mention that the teacher I was referring to is British, but I am quite sure you understood that.

Re: Comes in colours.

Avangi — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:16:12 GMT

Are the colours black and blue?

Can't believe I started this with my smallest reply ever.

Re: Comes in colours.

Grammar Geek — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:22:26 GMT

Really? Go back and read the entire paragraph. It was concerning will and shall as well. And this does answer the post exactly - by saying that will and shall do not really have the "coloring" as asserted, then "going to" is not the only one that is netural. Will is also quite neutral. And shall just isn't used much (in the US).

Re: Comes in colours.

Anonymous — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:54:08 GMT

Alienvoord wrote:
Grammar Geek wrote:

I shall is simply future. I will expresses determination.

He shall expresses obligation. He will is simply future.

This originated with Wallis in the 17th century. It is not followed by American, Scottish or Irish writers, and it has never been consistently followed by English writers either.

Hey, why not go get your own thread for that?

The thread question here was about colouring of going to.

Re: Comes in colours.

Alienvoord — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:02:41 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:
I shall is simply future. I will expresses determination.

He shall expresses obligation. He will is simply future.

This originated with Wallis in the 17th century. It is not followed by American, Scottish or Irish writers, and it has never been consistently followed by English writers either.

Re: Comes in colours.

Grammar Geek — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:55:37 GMT

Hi Tanit,

The shall/will thing is rarely used in the US. The weird thing about it is that for first person, they reverse.

I shall is simply future. I will expresses determination.

He shall expresses obligation. He will is simply future.

There's a famous couplet to show the difference: I shall drown and no one will save me - a sad prediction. I will drown and no one shall save me - a delcaration of suicide with instructions to not stop it.

However, in the U.S., about the only time you'll hear "shall" is "Shall we [verb]?" Shall we go? Shall we dance?

Your teacher, if he was being very precise, was expressing future expectation, not determination.

I very much expect that if you surveyed 1000 Americans about the difference between "I shall" and "I will," well over 950 of them will say something like "Ummm.... is shall British, maybe?"