http://www.englishforums.com/English/LinguisticsDiscussionForum/Forum35.htmGet into the nitty-gritty of the language.enXMOD (Build: 3616.28671)http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#936329Sat, 10 Oct 2009 07:57:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:936329CalifJim0http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#936329http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-936329.xmlOrdinary language logic is not the same as mathematical logic. Consider the basic idea of equality. Jack was assigned to clean out the stables, but he was not the task. Note the measurement 'upward' from an assumed 'low' starting point of 'no ability to do the task'. And how 'equal' is synonymous, in some sense, to 'up'. There is no possibility whatsoever that this sentence could mean that Jack cleaned the stables even better than expected. Likewise, as strong as = equal to the strength of = up to the strength of; not as strong as = not equal to the strength of = not up to the strength of (where equal has its ordinary language meaning -- not its mathmatical meaning). All gradable...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#935628Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:05:46 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:935628Clive1http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#935628http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-935628.xmlHi, You gave us only one choice as to what 'A is not as strong as B'. This is typically short hand for 'A is not as strong as B is strong'. Out of context though, this is only a guess. It might be short for 'A is not as strong as B is beautiful' . I've thought about your above remarks for a while, and I can't think of a real-life context in which someone would say 'A is not as strong as B', with the meaning I've marked in bold. Can you please suggest a natural context or dialogue in which this would be said? Best wishes, Clivehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#935534Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:13:43 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:935534Anonymous2http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#935534http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-935534.xmlPart I: Yes. Part II: I do use "weaker". Also - using "is not as strong as" lightens the tone. If you don't want to offend (or you're showing agreement toward) A, use "is not as strong as". If you want to emphasize B's strength, use "is weaker than". I believe it's about the tone.http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#934730Fri, 09 Oct 2009 06:16:46 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:934730Anonymous3http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#934730http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-934730.xmlYou gave us only one choice as to what 'A is not as strong as B'. This is typically short hand for 'A is not as strong as B is strong'. Out of context though, this is only a guess. It might be short for 'A is not as strong as B is beautiful' . A better choice out of context here would have been that 'B is stronger than A' as another way of saying 'A is not as strong as B'. Do not equate 'not as...as' with 'not ='. 'is as...as' is another one of those shorthand forms. Expanded it would be: 'is at least as...as'. I often write 'is (at least) as...as' knowing that people are so often confused by the symmetric appearance of the as...as construction, that they...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#462417Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462417Goodman4http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#462417http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462417.xml[ Hi Kooyeen, Heh, that's pretty difficult. I'm afraid there's no real connection, LOL. I think you are trying to improve the same way I used to . Y ou are the only one who could improve the way you think, or used to think. Laughing out loud and thinking out loud are dangerous acts on forums like this. I needed a lot of rules of thumb, Many learners living in non-English speaking lands surely will agree with you and feel the same. so that I could understand by myself what was good and what was not. The problem is that I found out English is actually a little bit too complicated, and I ended up asking a lot of questions (I still ask anyway, LOL). One of the latest complications I've come across is the fact that I realized...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#462415Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462415MrPedantic5http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/2/zjblx/Post.htm#462415http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462415.xmlI opted for route 2; for me, "not as strong as" puts the focus on "strength" as a quality, whereas "weaker than" puts the focus on "weakness". In the former, we are looking towards the stronger party; in the latter, towards the weaker. In relation to route 3: "not as strong as" can be forced into the meaning "stronger than"; but then it always has an element of "surprisal", e.g. "Superman isn't as strong as Homer Simpson." "What do you mean? Superman is infinitely stronger than Homer Simpson!" "I rest my case. Superman isn't as strong as Homer Simpson." MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462403Sat, 25 Apr 2009 21:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462403Clive6http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462403http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462403.xmlHi, Come again, please! In PART I, you answered YES. Why didn't you instinctively say, 'A is weaker than B' ? If there is a little doubt in your thought that 'weaker' is not the right word, than why did you answer YES to PART I? If you will forgive me, please give it your best to describe what is going on in your head. I hope if we do this exercise right, a lot of learners will benefit. I don't understand your response, because I thought I had already explained my thinking by saying this. Generally speaking, it means I am thinking of both of them as strong. eg Both armies were strong, but the Roman army was stronger than the Greek army. Actually, although it doesn't make any difference to my explanation of my thinking, I...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462391Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462391Kooyeen7http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462391http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462391.xmlOk, I will answer your original post: Hoa Thai wrote: PART I: Does 'A is not as strong as B' mean ' A is weaker than B' to you? Most of the times, but not always. If it does go to PART II, else go to Part III below and see if your reason is the same as mine; if not, please offer your thought. I'm going to go to both. PART II: a) Why do you use 'not as strong as' instead of 'weaker'? and b) could you please offer a reason why you think that way? When I say "weaker" I could be imagining a strength scale of 1 to 10. If A is strong 7, if the strength of B is less than 7, then B is weaker than A. Change the numbers as you want, the concept will remain the same. When I say "not as strong as", I think I am already considering...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462376Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462376Hoa Thai8http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462376http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462376.xmlKooyeen wrote: "Not as x as something" is used to mean "less x than something" in Italian too. But that's the usual meaning, like in English. If you want to use it in a sentence to mean "more x than something", in Italian you can, and I'm sure you can in English as well. That's all Hi Kooyeen, First, thank you for warning me not to go down the same road that you find frustrating. By the way, I am not forcing / looking for the meaning "more x than something." Just as a hint to friends who share your thought with me on this topic, do not try to reason why I ask my question. Please treat it as you know nothing about my logic in PART III. It was there in case you answer NO to PART I. The main question you should help me answer is...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462365Mon, 25 May 2009 21:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462365Kooyeen9http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462365http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462365.xmlHoa Thai wrote: Therefore, it is more natural to address them. If anybody finds that statement rather offensive, please pardon me. That includes you too, Kooyeen. Hmm, I didn't even notice you wrote "To native speakers". Well, I wouldn't have felt offended anyway, LOL Hoa Thai wrote: My intention is to establish a connection between naturalness to a logic. Heh, that's pretty difficult. I'm afraid there's no real connection, LOL. I think you are trying to improve the same way I used to. I needed a lot of rules of thumb, so that I could understand by myself what was good and what was not. The problem is that I found out English is actually a little bit too complicated, and I ended up asking a lot of questions (I still ask...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462363Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462363Hoa Thai10http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462363http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462363.xmlClive wrote: PART I: Does ' A is not as strong as B' mean 'A is weaker than B' to you? Yes. PART II: a) Why do you use 'not as strong as' instead of 'weaker'? and b) could you please offer a reason why you think that way? Generally speaking, it means I am thinking of both of them as strong . eg Both armies were strong, but the Roman army was stronger than the Greek army. Perhaps you are wondering if ' A is not as strong as B' suggests to me the possibility that A is actually stronger than B? No, it doesn't, in terms of language. In logic, I suppose it would. But such language expressions are not bound by strict logic. (No, I did not wonder if you would think that way - It is not natural!) Hi Clive, Come again,...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462341Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462341Hoa Thai11http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462341http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462341.xmlKooyeen wrote: Hi, I think we talked about this some time ago... it turned out "not as x as something" could mean either "more x than something" or "less x than something" , but the usual meaning (used and intended 95% of the time), is "less x than something" . But you can use it with the other meaning too. Look: - Bush is not as dumb as Paris Hilton. - Yeah, you are right! He's more! Does that make sense? Hi Kooyeen, YES! We did talk about this. 'Stronger than steel' was the topic, which was locked because of a heated debate. Now, I think everybody has been cooling down, I like to reopen the discussion. I have also been reading your exchange with the moderators on the issue of 'less young than'. It is very interesting to me...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462334Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462334Kooyeen12http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462334http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462334.xmlHi, I think we talked about this some time ago... it turned out "not as x as something" could mean either "more x than something" or "less x than something" , but the usual meaning (used and intended 95% of the time), is "less x than something" . But you can use it with the other meaning too. Look: - Bush is not as dumb as Paris Hilton. - Yeah, you are right! He's more! Does that make sense?http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462318Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462318Clive13http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htm#462318http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462318.xmlHi, To all native English speaking friends, PART I: Does ' A is not as strong as B' mean 'A is weaker than B' to you? Yes. If it does go to PART II, else go to Part III below and see if your reason is the same as mine; if not, please offer your thought. PART II: a) Why do you use 'not as strong as' instead of 'weaker'? and b) could you please offer a reason why you think that way? Generally speaking, it means I am thinking of both of them as strong. eg Both armies were strong, but the Roman army was stronger than the Greek army. Perhaps you are wondering if ' A is not as strong as B' suggests to me the possibility that A is actually stronger than B? No, it doesn't, in terms of language. In logic, I suppose it would. But...http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htmSat, 25 Apr 2009 21:44:52 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:462312Hoa Thai14http://www.englishforums.com/English/ThePrecisionConstruction/zjblx/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-462312.xmlTo all native English speaking friends, PART I: Does ' A is not as strong as B' mean 'A is weaker than B' to you? If it does go to PART II, else go to Part III below and see if your reason is the same as mine; if not, please offer your thought. PART II: a) Why do you use 'not as strong as' instead of 'weaker'? and b) could you please offer a reason why you think that way? PART III: The reason I ask those questions is because the following logic does not support the above interpretation: 1. As strong as = equally strong. 2. Not as strong as = not (as strong as) = not (equally strong). 3. 'Not equally strong' lacks the logic to help us determine which / who is stronger than which / whom. In short, if X ≠ Y, X < > Y; thus, one...