ESL Linguistics Discussion Forum

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Cool Breeze — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:02:11 GMT

Word order is fairly free in Finnish. However, people don't put words in just any order. Some collocations usually occur in poems and lyrics of songs only. Let's take an English sentence as an example: Spring has come again. In Finnish the four words - there are four words in Finnish as well - can be in any order. Changing the word order never produces a question in Finnish. I think that only about six or seven of the possible combinations are actually normally used. No word order is ungrammatical, though, and therefore the words may occur in any order in a poem.

If I use the English word order, the sentence is: KevÃ¤t on tullut taas.

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Cool Breeze — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:07:13 GMT

There are fewer prepositions in Finnish than in English. Quite often, it is possible to place a preposition before or after the word it modifies. If the preposition is after the noun, it is called a postposition. After all, it is after the word it modifies. (Latin post = after) The noun is in the genitive in these cases:

KÃ¤velin yli kadun. / KÃ¤velin kadun yli. (= I walked across the street.)

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Mosca — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 06:31:58 GMT

CalifJim
I speak American English, and, in contrast to "English", I never use the words shall, may, ought, or whom.

might is pp of may? 'might' I keep hearing all the time?

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Cool Breeze — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:02:02 GMT

Alienvoord
All the online Finnish-English dictionaries gloss kÃ¤site as "concept". I guess you would disagree with that.

I don't know whether I should agree or disagree. You (among others over the years) have given me reason to think it's not a very good word in all contexts. If I can use concept in the contexts I have described in my previous posts, the word is fine.

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Alienvoord — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:38:26 GMT

All the online Finnish-English dictionaries gloss kÃ¤site as "concept". I guess you would disagree with that.

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Cool Breeze — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:31:53 GMT

Alienvoord
I see what you mean. That sounds interesting - what is the Finnish word? Do you know its derivation?

The word is kÃ¤site. Actually zebra crossing isn't a very good example because the word is usually applied to abstract things. Main principle would be a better example. In Finnish it's a compound. I am pretty sure kÃ¤site is derived from kÃ¤si (= a hand) and a verb kÃ¤sittÃ¤Ã¤. Centuries ago the verb had a rather concrete meaning: "to touch and feel with hands". When one did that, one got an idea about the shape and size of an object. Over time the meaning changed and became more abstract. These days the verb has lost its original meaning completely and it now means "to understand".

I wish people living in the Far East would give examples of differences between English and their native languages as I know very little about them.

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Alienvoord — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:49:40 GMT

I see what you mean. That sounds interesting - what is the Finnish word? Do you know its derivation?

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:48:17 GMT

I see what you mean. That sounds interesting - what is the Finnish word, and what is its derivation?

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Cool Breeze — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:27:25 GMT

I think about albour permit etc. in exactly the same way as you and I understand why you wonder why you would need to describe words like that any other way. You don't! It's just that in Finnish there is a word for a "complete" concept or conception. I know now that these aren't the right words. I always had my doubts about them. The Finnish word is a noun. And we need not talk about compound words or compound nouns at all. For example a zebra is complete in itself as it is: I saw a zebra. However, I can also use it as part of a compound word: a zebra crossing: Pedestrians should use a zebra crossing to cross a street. In this sentence zebra on its own wouldn't be enough, wouldn't be complete. Crossing is also needed for the meaning to be understood.

In Finnish there is a word, a noun that covers both usages, and Finns can say that all ****s that consist of more than one word are written as compounds. I don't know what English noun to insert where **** is. That is the word I am looking for. I am beginning to think there is no such word! That would in no way be exceptional. In the world's thousands of languages there are countless examples of that. It is a fallacy to think that all words of a language have a counterpart in all other languages. No way. And no language is the worse for that because all languages are deficient in this respect.

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Alienvoord — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:21:31 GMT

I'm not sure how to describe it other than "compounding is highly productive." I'm not sure why I would need to describe it any other way.

Anyway, department store, foreign policy, air force, labour permit, night train are compound words. They are written as two words, but they otherwise function as one word. So I don't think they're really different from compounds in German or Finnish (I know very little about Finnish, I'm just going by what you said).

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Cool Breeze — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:58:50 GMT

Alienvoord
I would just say that Finnish is highly synthetic.

Yes, it is, but isn't there a word in English for what I described? Actually, I have wondered about this for as long as I have studied English. I have never seen a word I think suitable. Perhaps there isn't one. Well, never mind...

Cheers

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Alienvoord — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:14:03 GMT

I would just say that Finnish is highly synthetic.

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Cool Breeze — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:02:30 GMT

Alienvoord
Really? What's the Finnish word for the concept "still angry about how I lost my wallet yesterday"?

Hmm... Maybe concept isn't the best word. Random House Webster's definition is "a general notion or idea" and I couldn't think of a better word to use. Perhaps you can help me? What would be a good word for what I described in my previous post?

Cheers

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Alienvoord — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:09:07 GMT

Cool Breeze
Finnish is extremely rich in compounds. This because all concepts are written as one word.

Really? What's the Finnish word for the concept "still angry about how I lost my wallet yesterday"?

Re: Differences between English and your native language

Cool Breeze — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:49:42 GMT

Finnish is extremely rich in compounds. This because all concepts are written as one word. Therefore all of these examples are compounds in Finnish: a collection of butterflies, a heap of sand, a bottle of beer, a department store, foreign policy, air force, labour permit, night train etc. Since countless nouns can be added after "a collection of" and after similar expressions, there is no limit to compounds and it would be impossible and pointless to try to include them in a dictionary.

Another convenient thing is that it is always possible to form an adjective and a noun from a place name. There must be more than a million towns and villages in the world, which means that in the Finnish vocabulary there are more than a million words to denote people who live in these places. Even if a person has never heard the name of a foreign village, he knows what to call a person who lives there. English is extremely awkward in this respect. If you live in New York, you are a New Yorker. Those who live in London are Londoners, but those who live in Moscow are Muscovites and those who live in Grantham are Granthamians. I wonder what to call anyone who lives in Uppsala or Kauniainen?

Cheers