ESL Linguistics Discussion Forum

Re: matter: who or that?

Alienvoord — Wed, 14 May 2008 16:12:32 GMT

shaved

that's usage with people dates back centuries in literature of all kinds

Yes, that has been used with human antecedents for as long as the word that has been in the language.

Re: matter: who or that?

Forbes — Mon, 12 May 2008 16:06:56 GMT

A language is by definition what a group of people actually use to communicate, not what they are supposed to use and that someone else expects them to use.

Can we have that up in lights!

(I wanted to put it in huge letters, but can't seem to do that )

Re: matter: who or that?

shaved — Mon, 12 May 2008 15:59:45 GMT

the 'who is only for people, that is only for things' rule is pedantic and trite

that's usage with people dates back centuries in literature of all kinds

prescriptive grammar =/= proper use of the language

Re: matter: who or that?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2008 01:35:23 GMT

I am so glad you asked! And Bravo to you for using your brain instead of falling for the dumming down of the English language and following the path of least intellectual resistance. WHO is right!

Re: matter: who or that?

CalifJim — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 03:51:30 GMT

Just to keep this thread "fair and balanced", let me say that I don't have any strong preference for who over that when referring to people.

Re: matter: who or that?

Kooyeen — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:05:42 GMT

I think I once read something similar... yeah, they looked quite confusing, LOL.

Grammar Geek
When people post here, having listened to something on the radio or seen someone on TV, and want to know if what that person said was "correct" or not... well, let's just say, the answer is just about always "not" -- according to the rules of formal, written English.

Yes, because you have time to read the sentence carefully, read it again, think, think again... and there's no trace of intonation or stress. So you might end up saying that something is odd without realizing it's something you sometimes actually say. This is a pretty confusing thing for learners... for example, if I try to pay attention to whatever I hear, I'll definitely notice an awful lot of weird pronunciations, strange sentences, etc. Sometimes I do pay attention, and that's when I get confused the most, lol.

Re: matter: who or that?

Grammar Geek — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:46:58 GMT

Kooyeen, have you ever read actual transcripts of speech?

I had to read.. what are they call it? When people have to give tesimony in a law suit... oh yeah, depositions. And when you read, word for word, what people actually say... well, it's amazing we can communicate at all!

When people post here, having listened to something on the radio or seen someone on TV, and want to know if what that person said was "correct" or not... well, let's just say, the answer is just about always "not" -- according to the rules of formal, written English. And I assure you, that includes my own speech. (Though the day you hear me say "I seen it!" please shoot me!)

Re: matter: who or that?

Kooyeen — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:26:09 GMT

Anonymous
There are many things in any language that even native speakers don't really know. I'm talking here about proper use of language, which is something that often sounds awfully "proper", or formal.

I hadn't read your post. Hmm, I doubt native speakers can't speak their own language. If they can't, who can? A language is by definition what a group of people actually use to communicate, not what they are supposed to use and that someone else expects them to use. So... sorry, but I don't think I am the kind of person who would enjoy that grammar book

Grammar Geek
I disagree with nothing you posted! Note I said a strong preference!

Ah, glad to hear that. I was afraid you would plan to kill me in some way, for example by sending me a poisoned PM or something, just because I wanted to used "that".
Once again, I see you were thinking more of written English... of course that's the first thing that crosses your mind, you are a writer! My situation is pretty different, because I think I tend to think of English in a more general way when I post, and I end up considering mainly informal English, sometimes even dialectal.

Re: matter: who or that?

Grammar Geek — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:21:29 GMT

I disagree with nothing you posted! Note I said a strong preference!

My error was in my first response - I should have said "Many writers -- including me -- will agree with you, although technicially you can use 'that' for people too."

Re: matter: who or that?

Kooyeen — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:16:22 GMT

Grammar Geek
Lordy, Kooyeen - you haven't been paying much attention to Philip! He and I share a VERY strong preference for using "who" for people whenever possible.

LOL, no I actually paid attention! I just wanted to say I don't remember reading much about that in grammar books or forums. But I already noticed your answers about this issue here in EF, so don't worry, I pay attention. But since this is not the first time I've seen you mention this difference, I got curious, and searched the net this time. Well, I was surprised to see so many results for "who vs that"! Ok, here's what I found...

This is from bartleby.com:
The man that wanted to talk to you just called back. Some people say that you can only use who and not that to introduce a restrictive relative clause that identifies a person. But that has been used in this way for centuries. It is a quintessential English usage, going back to the Old English period, and has been used by our best writers. So it is entirely acceptable to write either the man that wanted to talk to you or the man who wanted to talk to you.

This is Merriam-Webster:
That, which, who: In current usage that refers to persons or things, which chiefly to things and rarely to subhuman entities, who chiefly to persons and sometimes to animals. The notion that that should not be used to refer to persons is without foundation; such use is entirely standard. Because that has no genitive form or construction, of which or whose must be substituted for it in contexts that call for the genitive.

And then there are several websites telling people that only "who" is correct, but of course I don't understand that rule (and I don't accept it), for the simple reason that it doesn't reflect the way modern English is currently used. Actually, I don't even know where such rule comes from, since it seems "that" has been used instead of "who" for centuries. Go figure.

Re: matter: who or that?

Grammar Geek — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:39:44 GMT

Lordy, Kooyeen - you haven't been paying much attention to Philip! He and I share a VERY strong preference for using "who" for people whenever possible.

Sometimes it is okay to use "that" restrictively for people, especially when you don't know exactly who the person is: The man that I marry for my third marriage will be rich and on life support.

I don't know who this man is, so "that I marry" is simply saying which man I mean.

People do use "that" for other restrictive phrases when describing people, but I try very hard not to.

Re: matter: who or that?

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:37:44 GMT

There are many things in any language that even native speakers don't really know. I'm talking here about proper use of language, which is something that often sounds awfully "proper", or formal. The thing that reminded me of this rule is a book called A Grammar Book for You and I..oops, Me! by Ed Good. Now I am not completely sure that I ever read this in Ed's book, but something is telling me that I'm right. Anyway, if you ever have a chance to read it, do it. It is a grammar book, but a very fun grammar book.

Again, thanks a lot!

Re: matter: who or that?

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:29:00 GMT

Damn! I know about sooner, I just misspelled it. :)

Geek, thank you very much!

Re: matter: who or that?

Kooyeen — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:28:38 GMT

Anonymous
and the explanation I have is that I should use WHO when speaking of people, and THAT when speaking of things.

Hi,
I'm a non-native speaker too, but I've never heard of such rule, not even intended as a prescriptive rule (and I've read several grammar books). I've always read that you can use "that/which" for things, and "that/who" for people, so "that" goes with everything.
Maybe I've never paid attention to that distinction, if there is one, so maybe there might be a difference in register or something (I personally use "that" and "who" interchangeably, but I might consider using only "who" in some writing where I wanted to sound formal). GG's answer got me thinking though, and I think I'll search the net a little to find out more about "who vs that".

Re: matter: who or that?

Grammar Geek — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:16:02 GMT

You are right.

("sooner" not "sonner")