ESL Linguistics Discussion Forum

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

shaved — Fri, 09 May 2008 23:15:47 GMT

Anonymous
<fighting for your nation's soveregnty and risking being labeled a racist (or worse) to accomplish it>

But how does fighting for illegal immigrants rights threaten the sovereignty of a nation? Are you saying that illegal immigrants should have no rights?

I'm only saying that, in America, you won't find a consensus (or even a majority opinion) on what is considered patriotic.

the OP wanted to know what was worthy of being considered a "true patriot" in my country...

I live in the USA, and I honestly think that a person could be considered a true patriot by some while others consider the same person a parriah.

Our current President is an example of the point I'm making. The debate over what to do about illegal immigration is another.

Jim Gilcrest (former leader of the anti illegal immigrant rights activist group, The Minute Men) was widely considered a racist and a vigilante traitor in some circles.

But a large number of people believed that the work his group was doing was visionary and exactly what the country needed.

A lot of people, though, didn't really have strong opinions on the issue and, as a result, really didn't feel strongly either way.

The argument I'm making is that "true patriotism" in America is very difficult to define because we are such a fragmented nation when it comes to what our nation's role and priorities should be. Maybe that's the inherent flaw of complicated, multitiered representative forms of government when paired with a nation that is host to a very culturally and ethnically diverse (and even transient) population.

.... Or maybe this sentiment isn't uniquely American....

I'd be curious to hear what people in other countries think about this phenomenon (or lack of it) where they live.

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

MrPedantic — Fri, 09 May 2008 22:42:09 GMT

Anonymous

My question was not limited to the personal definitions of members here. With my question, one can talk about one's personal definition and other definitions that may be at work in one's country. Your question is more limited.

Your question works too:

Speaker A: "In your country, what does it take these days to deserve the label patriot?"
Speaker B: "I suppose a patriot would be someone who {action traditionally associated with patriotism}."
Speaker A: "Oh, I disagree. A true patriot would be someone who {action which it is unusual to associate with patriotism}."

Though now of course speaker A is the ironic party.

MrP

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

Grammar Geek — Fri, 09 May 2008 21:36:29 GMT

You are no longer asking linguistic questions. Shall we move this to controvertial subjects?

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

Anonymous — Fri, 09 May 2008 20:50:47 GMT

But how does fighting for illegal immigrants rights threaten the sovereignty of a nation? Are you saying that illegal immigrants should have no rights?

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

shaved — Fri, 09 May 2008 18:27:46 GMT

Anonymous

<To me, someone who protests against illegal immigrant rights is a patriot.>

HOW IS THAT PATRIOTIC?

fighting for your nation's soveregnty and risking being labeled a racist (or worse) to accomplish it

sounds like patriotism to me

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

Anonymous — Fri, 09 May 2008 09:42:57 GMT

Then the question would not be this one:

<<In your country, what does it take these days to deserve the label "patriot" and what of what does "anti-patriotism" consist?>>

My question was not limited to the personal definitions of members here. With my question, one can talk about one's personal definition and other definitions that may be at work in one's country. Your question is more limited.

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

Anonymous — Fri, 09 May 2008 09:29:01 GMT

It's difficult to come up with one which would exclude Adolph Hitler. (Are you sure we're in the right forum?)

Semantics and pragmatics: in the right forum?

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

Anonymous — Fri, 09 May 2008 09:26:34 GMT

HOW IS THAT PATRIOTIC?

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

MrPedantic — Thu, 08 May 2008 21:11:13 GMT

Avangi
To deserve the label one must get our attention with a surprisingly patriotic act?

Hello A.,

I think the essential thing is that the nomination should be surprising, rather than the degree of patriotism. Thus the conversation might go like this:

Speaker A: "How would you define patriot?"
Speaker B: "I suppose a patriot is someone who {action traditionally associated with patriotism}. How about you?"
Speaker A: "Oh, I disagree. For me, a true patriot is someone who {action which it is unusual to associate with patriotism}."

(In this way, the concept is rehabilitated.)

All the best,

MrP

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

Clive — Thu, 08 May 2008 04:11:07 GMT

Hi,

Just for the sake of argument, what do you suppose is meant by "The True North"?

The real, genuine North.

National anthems usually include such vainglorious assertions and sentiments.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

Avangi — Thu, 08 May 2008 00:31:32 GMT

Thanks for getting us back on track, MrP, but I'm not sure I understand c). To deserve the label one must get our attention with a surprisingly patriotic act? - A.

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

MrPedantic — Wed, 07 May 2008 23:35:43 GMT

what does it take these days to deserve the label "patriot"

If I understand the consensus correctly:

a) opinions with which we at least don't strongly disagree
b) a certain coy reluctance to claim the label
c) high surprisal value

MrP

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

shaved — Wed, 07 May 2008 23:34:00 GMT

Avangi
So could we define the American Patriot as one who protests against people who are protesting against something that's illegal?

probably not if we wanted to get people to agree on it

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

Avangi — Wed, 07 May 2008 23:28:20 GMT

shaved
To me, someone who protests against illegal immigrant rights is a patriot. I would imagine that many on these forums would argue that the counter-protesters are more patriotic.

So could we define the American Patriot as one who protests against people who are protesting against something that's illegal?

Re: Use of the word "patriot"

shaved — Wed, 07 May 2008 23:18:06 GMT

Avangi
what do you suppose is meant by "The True North"?

obvioulsy they aren't referrring to that crappy "fake north" people talk about so much