http://www.englishforums.com/English/LinguisticsDiscussionForum/Forum35.htmGet into the nitty-gritty of the language.enXMOD (Build: 3607.32596)http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/5/jwmwj/Post.htm#808620Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:49:07 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:808620Anonymous0http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/5/jwmwj/Post.htm#808620http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-808620.xml6776 - rules 7393 - rule Can we assume that most of the questioners of this forum are laymen when it comes to grammar and usage? And can we say that when laymen talk about linguistic rules, they usually mean prescriptive rules?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/5/jwmwj/Post.htm#808604Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:30:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:808604Anonymous1http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/5/jwmwj/Post.htm#808604http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-808604.xmlSPOGG "The Society for the Promotion of Good Grammar is for pen-toters appalled by wanton displays of Bad English. . . . SPOGG is for people who crave good, clean English — sentences cast well and punctuated correctly. It’s about clarity." Do they have any influence? Do we need 'em?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/5/jwmwj/Post.htm#808456Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:23:20 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:808456Anonymous2http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/5/jwmwj/Post.htm#808456http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-808456.xmlSorry. 138 - prescriptivist (then 166 in the plural) 72 - prescriptivism 639 - prescriptive 110 - prescribe (though some are uses outside grammar referencing)http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#808422Mon, 06 Jul 2009 06:45:49 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:808422Anonymous3http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#808422http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-808422.xmlBut wouldn't you say that the help given here is, mostly, prescriptive in nature?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#806395Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:25:54 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:806395AlpheccaStars4http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#806395http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-806395.xmlBTW, I guess quite a few folks here must be a little concerned regarding prescriptivism: 637 hits for "prescriptive" 138 for "prescriptive" Anon: Here are a few comments on your latest post: a) At least one of your numbers is wrong. b) A search on "help," yields 68,701 hits, and "English" yields 77,599. The folks here seem to be vastly more concerned with help and English than prescriptivism. c) I wonder how many of the hits on "prescriptive" originated in your posts.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#806347Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:42:04 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:806347Anonymous5http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#806347http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-806347.xmlNews in town: Prescriptivists no longer have power or status.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#806346Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:40:01 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:806346Anonymous6http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#806346http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-806346.xmlI wonder if MrP would describe the English you use here as prescritively perfect? BTW, I guess quite a few folks here must be a little concerned regarding prescriptivism: 637 hits for "prescriptive" 138 for "prescriptive"http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#805097Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:58:40 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:805097Kooyeen7http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#805097http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-805097.xmlI think you've missed the connection between prescriptivism and English exams. And, does one really need to know the word "prescriptivism" before one can observe and be affected by its ideology? No, but generally speaking, English exams are only a little subset of all the exams someone has to take, and prescriptive nonsense only involves a little subset of what matters in an essay, for example. Plus, if you take a look around on the net, if you exclude language-related forums or websites, you will probably see that prescriptivism is not really affecting many people, and they really don't seem to be worrying about it. if u try to correct someones comment on youtube your often gonna get a bunch of insults cuz they...http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#805056Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:23:19 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:805056Anonymous8http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#805056http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-805056.xmlThat Kooyeen and you think one has to be able to name a thing before one can know it is odd, to say the least.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#805031Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:04:28 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:805031Anonymous9http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#805031http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-805031.xmlAren't most parents rather prescriptive themselves? I mean, don't most parents regularly engage in telling their children what they may and may not do?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#805003Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:41:47 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:805003MrPedantic10http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#805003http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-805003.xmlI'm distressed to discover that the Times website has only two hits for "prescriptivism"; and even those are filed under "entertainment": http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article432691.ece http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article2306066.ece As far as I can see, the other 3m pages consist almost entirely of news about war, famine, chimponauts and Andy Murray. Clearly, they are quite out of touch with What Really Matters to the average British parent. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#804075Fri, 03 Jul 2009 06:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:804075Anonymous11http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/4/jwmwj/Post.htm#804075http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-804075.xmlThe last thing they worry about is prescriptivism. I don't think most of them even know what that means anyway. I think you've missed the connection between prescriptivism and English exams. And, does one really need to know the word "prescriptivism" before one can observe and be affected by its ideology?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#803653Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:50:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:803653Kooyeen12http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#803653http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-803653.xmlThe last thing parents worry about is passing exams? No. The last thing they worry about is prescriptivism. I don't think most of them even know what that means anyway.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#802385Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:25:26 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:802385Anonymous13http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#802385http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-802385.xml<No, because I seriously believe that's the last thing they worry about.> The last thing parents worry about is passing exams?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#802337Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:38:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:802337Kooyeen14http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#802337http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-802337.xmlYou think parents shouldn't be concerned? Schoolkids shouldn't? No, because I seriously believe that's the last thing they worry about.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801465Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:19:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:801465Anonymous15http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801465http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-801465.xmlSure, what you said is true. But it doesn't mention any reasons why we would all need to worry about prescriptivists. No one said "all". You think parents shouldn't be concerned? Schoolkids shouldn't?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801224Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:52:19 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:801224Kooyeen16http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801224http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-801224.xml<All the others can just forget about them.> Tell your kids that when they fail their next English exam. I think my kids will have other things to actually worry about. Me too, I guess. Kooyeen must be immune. "There was an urgency surrounding the notion of a standard language , in the eighteenth century. People needed to know who they were talking to. Snap judgments were everything, when it came to social position. And things are not much different today. We make immediate judgments based on how people dress, how they do their hair, decorate their bodies--and how they speak and write. It is the first bit of discourse that counts. . . ." Sure, what you said is true. But it doesn't mention...http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801209Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:16:40 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:801209MrPedantic17http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801209http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-801209.xmlSince your English is excellent Prescriptivistically perfect, I would say...http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801196Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:54:15 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:801196Anonymous18http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801196http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-801196.xml< On the other hand, being concerned about those who wish to learn "standard English" is a worthy cause.> Whose standard are you referring to?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801193Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:51:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:801193Anonymous19http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801193http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-801193.xml< Huh? My post did not mention the words "adverb" or "adjective", and your interpretation is your own, Anon. Have your ever heard of irony and sarcasm? > Did ya look at the link, did ya?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801004Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:08:40 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:801004AlpheccaStars20http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/3/jwmwj/Post.htm#801004http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-801004.xmlThe whole point of the post is that the rabble is destroying the language by replacing adverbs with adjectives. The post drips with disdain for those dips whose slovenly usage is slowly leaching our precious adverbs from our precious language. Huh? My post did not mention the words "adverb" or "adjective", and your interpretation is your own, Anon. Have your ever heard of irony and sarcasm? I sincerely hope you are not losing sleep worrying over all the junk on the Internet or the continued natural dynamics of language. So what if "fail" becomes more used as a noun? Shakespeare used it in that way, and trying to turn this tide is to go on an endless quixotic adventure. Evolution happens. On the other...http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800914Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:22:48 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:800914Adrenochrome21http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800914http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-800914.xmlGreat song (the original, that is - never heard the Pink version) and 'me & Bobby McGee' is fine, although I, of course, would say 'Bobby McGee and I'. I'm just a contrary son of a gun.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800852Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:44:34 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:800852Anonymous22http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800852http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-800852.xmlKooyeen must be immune. "There was an urgency surrounding the notion of a standard language , in the eighteenth century. People needed to know who they were talking to. Snap judgments were everything, when it came to social position. And things are not much different today. We make immediate judgments based on how people dress, how they do their hair, decorate their bodies--and how they speak and write. It is the first bit of discourse that counts. . . ." http://grammar.about.com/od/pq/g/prescgramterm.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800840Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:37:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:800840Anonymous23http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800840http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-800840.xmlGet yer heads round these song titles. "We put together a Bad Grammar Hall of Fame Playlist, full of songs we love despite their bad grammar. You'll find it at the bottom of this page." http://nationalgrammarday.com/http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800827Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:30:15 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:800827Anonymous24http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800827http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-800827.xml<All the others can just forget about them.> Tell your kids that when they fail their next English exam.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800652Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:56:27 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:800652Kooyeen25http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800652http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-800652.xml<Why should you care about prescriptivists?> You think they have no power? Power over you, maybe, since you are always so scared. All the others can just forget about them. Alphecca, haha, that was funny.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800380Mon, 29 Jun 2009 06:44:43 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:800380Anonymous26http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#800380http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-800380.xmlPrescriptivists today are sailing against the gales of mediocrity, adrift in the vast oceans of literary ignorance, besieged by the vicious onslaughts of rap, dialect, and urbandictionary. "(... )is just the same junk everyone says on the internet to show their linguistic superiority — complaining that the so-called “educated” amongst us are actually uneducated, blaming the ills of modern language usage on “the drone of mass media”, all that jazz. The whole point of the post is that the rabble is destroying the language by replacing adverbs with adjectives. The post drips with disdain for those dips whose slovenly usage is slowly leaching our precious adverbs from our precious language." ...http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#797529Sat, 27 Jun 2009 07:05:42 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:797529Fandorin27http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#797529http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-797529.xmlFine? Even for the prescriptivists? How so? Prescriptivists today are sailing against the gales of mediocrity, adrift in the vast oceans of literary ignorance, besieged by the vicious onslaughts of rap, dialect, and urbandictionary. Funny short film!http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#795550Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:37:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:795550Anonymous28http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#795550http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-795550.xmlSee you, me and Julio, down by the school yard "See you" could mean "Julio and I will see you down by the schoolyard".http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#795535Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:33:32 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:795535Anonymous29http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/2/jwmwj/Post.htm#795535http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-795535.xml<Why should you care about prescriptivists?> You think they have no power?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#795495Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:46:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:795495AlpheccaStars30http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#795495http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-795495.xmlFine? Even for the prescriptivists? How so? Prescriptivists today are sailing against the gales of mediocrity, adrift in the vast oceans of literary ignorance, besieged by the vicious onslaughts of rap, dialect, and urbandictionary.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#795486Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:44:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:795486Clive31http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#795486http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-795486.xmlHi, How about in "Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard", by Paul Simon? You have to look at that phrase in the context of the relevant sentence in the lyrics, which is this. See you, me and julio Down by the schoolyard See you. See me. See Julio. These all seem to be objects. 'Me' is fine. Are there any other lyrics that perplex you? Best wishes, Clivehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#795480Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:36:58 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:795480MrPedantic32http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#795480http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-795480.xmlIn the version by P!nk, the title is ungrammatical. In all the other versions, it's fine. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#795478Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:30:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:795478Kooyeen33http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#795478http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-795478.xmlIt doesn't matter whether it is the object or the subject, it would be fine anyway. I wonder why you are even asking this question. Fine? Even for the prescriptivists? How so? Why should you care about prescriptivists?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#794936Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:40:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:794936Anonymous34http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#794936http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-794936.xmlThanks for the repsonse, Clive. How about in "Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard", by Paul Simon?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#794930Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:32:46 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:794930Anonymous35http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#794930http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-794930.xmlIt doesn't matter whether it is the object or the subject, it would be fine anyway. I wonder why you are even asking this question. Fine? Even for the prescriptivists? How so?http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#794825Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:53:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:794825Kooyeen36http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#794825http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-794825.xmlIt doesn't matter whether it is the object or the subject, it would be fine anyway. I wonder why you are even asking this question.http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#794806Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:35:49 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:794806Clive37http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htm#794806http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-794806.xmlHi, Is the song title "Me and Bobby McGee" an example of incorrect usage? Me, and Arnold Zwicky, think/s not. Zwicky says that because " me and Bobby McGee", in the song, is the object of a preposition, it is grammatical, and I agree with him. What do you think? 'Me' is fine. Best wishes, Clive Busted flat in Baton Rouge, headin' for the train, Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans. Bobby thumbed a diesel down, just before it rained; Took us all the way to New Orleans. I took my harpoon out of my dirty red bandanna, And was blowing sad while Bobby sang the blues. With them windshield wipers slappin' time, And Bobby clappin' hands, We finally sang up every song that driver knew. Freedom's just another word for...http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htmThu, 25 Jun 2009 07:52:56 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:794606Anonymous38http://www.englishforums.com/English/BobbyMcgeeGrammatical/jwmwj/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-794606.xmlIs the song title "Me and Bobby McGee" an example of incorrect usage? Me, and Arnold Zwicky, think/s not. Zwicky says that because " me and Bobby McGee", in the song, is the object of a preposition, it is grammatical, and I agree with him. What do you think?