http://www.englishforums.com/English/LinguisticsDiscussionForum/Forum35.htmGet into the nitty-gritty of the language.enXMOD (Build: 3615.39139)http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#82835Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:82835MrPedantic0http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#82835http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-82835.xmlI'm sorry to hear that, Korin. Very best of luck with sorting everything out. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#82805Sun, 25 Jan 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:82805korin1http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#82805http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-82805.xmlHallo MrP I find this topic interesting and we'll come back to it soon, hopefully. However, yesterday my flat was broken into and I lost most of my computer equipment and some other stuff. Now I have to sort out some things. I suggest that all of you should be cautious. Check your locks, etc. korinhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#81991Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81991MrPedantic2http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#81991http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81991.xmlAh! The Hegelian idea is very interesting. It seems applicable both to grammatical structures and e.g. catchphrases, clichés, suddenly fashionable formulations, etc. I wonder how this sounds to you. Let's imagine rule X, which is based upon a misunderstanding of grammar. If a best-selling style guide advocates rule X, and people begin to observe it, there is a dilemma for those people who know that rule X is based upon an error. If you break rule X, at least some readers will notice; and a reader who notices your grammar is no longer paying attention. So you refrain from breaking rule X, or find a paraphrase; but because of that choice, rule X is strengthened. In other words, passive avoidance may help to establish a grammatical...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#81968Mon, 25 May 2009 00:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81968korin3http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#81968http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81968.xmlI'm sorry for the faulty design of the last part of my post. It's supposed to be as follows Let's take some element of language: 1. Since most of the speakers use ------------------------------------------------ 1. thesis it, grammar books describe it as a standard and correct form (descriptive approach) a very chic idea has been created (very influential writer or whatever) 2. A new form is gaining popularity ------------------------------------------------- 2. antithesis among some of the speakers as a result of e.g. artificial encouragement Some (writers, politicians, people working in media) people may be unconsiously advocate this particular form (prescriptive approach?) After some time... ...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#81966Mon, 25 May 2009 00:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81966korin4http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#81966http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81966.xmlMy apologies, MrP (your post was clear) That's interesting. Actually, artificial encouragement can be in its own way 'prescriptive.' Creating a chic idea you influence speaker's choices prescribing a particular usage of the infinitive. You may not be successful overnight, but as an increasingly great number of speakers will be adopting your form, one day it will inevitably become a standard form recommended by grammar books. The grammar books, on the other hand, will be then 'descriptive' capturing the linguistic tendencies of the majority of the speakers (I'm lost!) On the free market you do not always start to manufacture the products that you think the customers desperately need. Sometimes you produce a commodity and then take...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#81764Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81764MrPedantic5http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/2/qwrp/Post.htm#81764http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81764.xmlA slight misunderstanding, Korin: I was interested in the phenomenon of 'artificial encouragement', rather than 'artificial hindrance', by analogy with advertising. To take the usual example: we create an idea of 'body odour', and then sell people deodorants. Thus the shelves of the supermarket reflect the needs of its customers; but sometimes those needs can be 'created'. Similarly – a 'thought experiment' – if we create the idea that the 'split infinitive' is extremely chic, through our best-selling book on grammar (maybe it's called 'To excessively eat, to randomly shoot, to quickly leave'), and the 'chic split infinitive' permeates all varieties of English, till native speakers can't utter 3 words without splitting an...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81740Sun, 25 Jan 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81740korin6http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81740http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81740.xmlBy the way, ironically, I teach British native speakers to use 'correct' Englishhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81738Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81738korin7http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81738http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81738.xmlI do not consider advertising some forms as artificial hindrance. If you are a popular writer, you can use them, or even overuse them. At the end of the day, it's up to your readers if they start using your forms or not. You advocate split infinitives in your grammar book as long as you clearly state that 'traditional' form of the infinitive is also grammatically accurate, and the form you recommend is only the question of your personal grammatical/stylistic taste. In all these cases speakers of a language are not forced to use one particular form. No form is imposed by any institution. Generally, at least that's what I believe, a language reflects the needs of its speakers, and changes according to them. If today, for example,...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81737Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81737MrPedantic8http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81737http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81737.xmlThat's true! I'm reminded of this phenomenon. A non-native English-speaking person (X?) visits your place of work. His English is carefully phrased; his grammar is correct; he has only a slight foreign accent. After he's gone, someone (Z?) will say: 'his English was better than mine!'; or 'he speaks better English than the English!'; or some such phrase. The intonation can vary; but it often implies a) admiration b) a rebuke to those English people who 'don't know their grammar', etc. I find this interesting, because there's another kind of non-native English-speaking person (Y?) who visits your place of work, or perhaps works at your place of work. His English resembles the English English people speak; his accent may be...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81733Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81733paco20049http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81733http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81733.xmlIn another view, we might say ESL students are encouraged by online English. Some ESL students would hesitate to write English fearing grammatical mistakes. pacohttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81564Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81564MrPedantic10http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81564http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81564.xmlIt's an interesting question: is 'standard online English' a variety of spoken or written English? Or should it be regarded as a 3rd category? At this point it would be useful to have some scans of those posting on English Forums, so that we could establish which parts of the brain light up... One day we'll all post on the internet by talking into a piece of software that recognizes our words and posts as we speak. At that point, it really will be a problem for learners of English –even native speakers are appalled when they see transcripts (or hear impromptu recordings) of their own speech! MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81535Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81535paco200411http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81535http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81535.xmlA learner's side humble opinion A problem of English learners like me who have learned and are learning English through printed matters is that they tend to think spoken/informal English should be as grammatical (in prescriptive sense) as written English. Grammar was originally rules made for writings, not for speaking, and no matter what language it may be, native speakers (and even non-native speakers) wouldn't care much about whether what they utter is in agreement with the rules written in grammar books or not. In the world of google, many native speakers seem to write in an atmosphere as if they are speaking, and so the writing is often away from the grammar rules. When learners access such writings, they would worry in a way...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81519Sun, 25 Jan 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81519MrPedantic12http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81519http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81519.xmlIt's an interesting idea. Does the metaphor hold true in all its parts? For instance, a supplier can advocate his product through advertising, and so stimulate demand: artificial encouragement, as opposed to artificial hindrance. Similarly, I can advocate split infinitives, in a best-selling book about grammar, and so stimulate the production of split infinitives: artificial encouragement, again, as opposed to artificial hindrance. Or take the example of famous writers: Denham, Cowley, and Dryden had a great influence on the way English was written in the C17 and after, simply because people liked the way they wrote, and were persuaded to do likewise. I'd be more inclined to say that if person A advocates usage XYZ, and so...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81219Sun, 25 Jan 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:81219korin13http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htm#81219http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-81219.xmlHallo, I like the way Otto Jespersen (in 'Language: Its Nature, Development and Origin') aptly summarised the nature of language changes by comparing it with one of the theories of the Manchester School of Economics: 'Everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds if only no artificial hindrances are put in the way of free exchange, for demand and supply will regulate everything better than any Government would be able to.' Korinhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htmSun, 25 Jan 2009 01:13:24 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:80935anon114http://www.englishforums.com/English/GrammarPrescriptiveAttitude/qwrp/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-80935.xmlHi, For those interested, you might wish to check out Grammar and the Prescriptive Attitude . I think this topic has been bounced around this forums a few times, though I have not kept pace with the discussion. MH