http://www.englishforums.com/English/LinguisticsDiscussionForum/Forum35.htmGet into the nitty-gritty of the language.enXMOD (Build: 3616.28671)http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#205721Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:205721Anonymous0http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#205721http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-205721.xmlI have eaten Lunch. it means that i have eaten lunch at the unparticular time in the pasthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#106170Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:106170Roro1http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#106170http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-106170.xml... that is, we can use past tense without any traces of senses in the past ... (when I said we can depict some past world I was thinking roughly such things ...)http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#106151Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:106151Roro2http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#106151http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-106151.xmlHello, milky ! Sure ! We can depict some , completely distinct from current world, using past tense, for example. Could you tell us where ... or who said this phrase "is important to now" ? (I ask you because ... maybe I said ...?) Good day!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#106142Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:106142milky3http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#106142http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-106142.xmlI find a problem with the explanation "is important to now". Would anyone speak about anything that wasn't important to the now of the conversation?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#99323Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99323Roro4http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#99323http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99323.xmlTo senthilvelann. Thank you very much for your information, but, ... I think.... it's one thing to classify examples (and to give appropreate labels for them). A construction of a theory about them --- related to another matters. Isn't it...?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#99251Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99251abbie19485http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#99251http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99251.xmlOops! It is in a moderated forum.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#99242Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99242abbie19486http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#99242http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99242.xmlIt seems to me that this discussion would now be better in the linguistics discussion forum, as it now seems to be getting over-complicated for a simple explanation of the use of present perfect. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder whether some of it needs to go to a moderated forum!!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#99219Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99219MrPedantic7http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/9/bdrlx/Post.htm#99219http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99219.xmlJTT: 3. We've already discussed this – yesterday. In the initial example from the CGEL and in the Blair example, the CGEL states; "In {the example} the 'already' indicates that I'm concerned with the occurrence of the situation of our discussing it within a time-span up to now and cancels the normally excluding effect of 'yesterday' ... " It seems strange that the 'already' should cancel 'yesterday', which at that point has not yet been 'uttered'. If I may rephrase the CGEL (which is in any case merely a Cambridge publication, and so presumably outranked by the Oxford-educated Mr Blair in Just The Trout's view): "In {the example} the 'already' indicates that I was at that point concerned with the occurrence of the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99217Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99217MrPedantic8http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99217http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99217.xml...I would take the 'last year' here as an afterthought, that clarifies 'already'... In other words: the spoken English even of Fettes-educated Oxonians renowned for their linguistic accuracy is at best a very approximate affair. A glance at any transcript of spoken English, e.g. a court transcript, will demonstrate that most of us (even the barristers and John Prescott) mostly get by with a jumble of fragments and inconsistent burble. The editors of Hansard, for instance, the record of proceedings in the British House of Commons, often ask the speakers to 'clarify' statements; and the most obvious slips are tactfully amended. People dislike seeing literal transcripts of their own ramblings almost as much as they dislike...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99211Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99211MrPedantic9http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99211http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99211.xmlAh, yes. Your equivalent to the former Mayor Daley of Chicago: "In my administration I promise we will rise to higher and higher platitudes". MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99210Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99210MrPedantic10http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99210http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99210.xmlMrP said: The 'progressive' version sounds slightly awkward, though: iii) ??'He's been getting up usually at five o'clock for the last 20 years.' +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Just the Trout said: The present progressive is not used in English to talk about events that have a long timespan. *He is riding his bicycle to work for ten years now.* That's why it sounds awkward. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ MrP says: My example iii is not an example of the present progressive. It's an example of the present perfect progressive. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99208Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99208MrPedantic11http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99208http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99208.xmlJTT says: Tony Blair: The son of a barrister and lecturer, Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh, but spent most of his childhood in Durham. At the age of 14 he returned to Edinburgh to finish his education at Fettes College. He studied law at Oxford, and went on to become a barrister himself. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mr Blair's cv is cited by Just The Trout as sufficient refutation in itself of my doubts as to Mr Blair's authority in these matters. I take this to imply that because Mr Blair is the son of a barrister, and was born in Edinburgh, and was educated at the private school "Fettes College", and studied law at Oxford, and was himself a practising barrister, he is naturally an authority for...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99205Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99205abbie194812http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99205http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99205.xmlKhoff "In fact, Trout, Mr. Pedantic's status as moderator indicates that within the English Forum community, he is recognized as "an authority for accurate linguistic usage." Trout "That's an assumption that's way way too large, Mr/Ms Hoff!" I think being a mod is a position of trust It is my understanding, Trout, that mods. bring varying talents and knowledge to the forum. However, I am given to understand that the major factor is that they repeatedly demonstrate awareness of mature net etiquette. I suppose this would include courtesy and respect for others' opinions.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99204Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99204pieanne13http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99204http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99204.xmlDon't you worry!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99202Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99202senthilvelann14http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99202http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99202.xmlTo Pieanne, Yes. It is a "Typo". It should have been " John has written a number of short stories ( implies that john is still alive and can write more) Sorry for the mistake. Thanks. MSN.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99200Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99200pieanne15http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99200http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99200.xmlSorry, I still think there's a typo here: C. PP can also be used for actions which occur further back in the past provided the connexion with the present is still mainteained, that is that the action could be repeated in the present. (e.g) I have seen wolves in that forest ( implies that it is still possible to see them) (e.g) John wrote a number of short stories ( implies that John is still alive and can write more )http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99198Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99198MrPedantic16http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/8/bdrlx/Post.htm#99198http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99198.xmlMrP said: "I've never seen Tony Blair cited as an authority for accurate linguistic usage before... " ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ JTT said: "I've never seen Mr Pedantic cited as an authority for accurate linguistic usage before... " ... My comment was simply a repeat of the inane comment from Mr Pedantic which "seems to indicate that the poster is unable to defeat the other party's line of argument (thus resorting to personal comments)". Tony Blair: The son of a barrister and lecturer, Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh, but spent most of his childhood in Durham. At the age of 14 he returned to Edinburgh to finish his education at Fettes College. He studied law at Oxford, and went on to...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99195Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99195senthilvelann17http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99195http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99195.xmlTo Pieanne, I just think there's a typo: your second example for C should read: "John has written a number of short stories" , and not wrote No Typo. If John is dead we would say "John wrote a number of short stories". msn.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99186Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99186senthilvelann18http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99186http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99186.xmlSir Further examples of the use of the present perfect and simple past A. Tom(visting Philip for the first time) : I didn't know you lived in houseboat. Philip: I've always lived in a houseboat. I was born in one. I thought you were still on holiday, When did you get back? I came back last week. Has your term started yet? Yes, it started on Monday. B. Note that a conversation about a past action often begins with a question and answer in the Present Perfect, but normally continues in the simple past, even when no time is given. This is because the action first mentioned has now become definite in the minds of the speakers: Where have you been? I've been to the cinema. What did you see?/What was the film? I...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99183Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99183senthilvelann19http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99183http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99183.xmlSir, IV - The present prefect used with "for" and "since" A. "for" is used with a period of time: for six days, for a long time. "for" is used with the simple past tense denotes a terminated period of time. (e.g) We lived there for ten years. ( but we don't live there now) "for" used with the PP denotes a period of time extending into the present: (e.g) We have lived in London for ten years. ( and still live there) "for" can sometomes be omitted. especially after "be,live and wait": (e.g) We've been here an hour/two days. "for(of time) is not used before expressions beginning with all: (e.g) They've worked all night. B. "since" is used with a point in time and means "from that point to the time of...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99181Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99181senthilvelann20http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99181http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99181.xmlSir, III The present perfect used for an action which lasts throughout an incomplete period Time expression include "for, since,all day/night/week, all my etc. life, all the time, always, lately, never, recently. A. The action usually begins in the past and continues past the time of speaking in the present. (e.g) He has been in the army for two years ( He is still in the army) (e.g) I have smoked since I left school ( I still smoke) (e.g) We have waited all day ( We are still waiting) (e.g) He has lived here all his life ( He still lives here) (e.g) He has always worked for us ( He still works for us) Compare the above sentences with: (e.g) He was in the army for two years ( He is not in the army now) (e.g) I...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99177Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99177senthilvelann21http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99177http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99177.xmlSir II ... continuation D. The PP can be used similarly with ever, never, always, occasionally, often, several times etc and since + a point in time, since + clause, or since, adverb: 1. Ann: Have you ever fallen off a horse? Tom: Yes, I've fallen off quite often/occasionally. But if Tom's riding days are over, we would have: Ann: Did you ever fall off a horse? (past tense) Tom: Yes, I did occasionally/frequently. 2. I haven't seen him sine November. Has he written since he left home? We had a letter last week. We haven't heard since. I've since changed my mind = I've changed my mind since then. 3. The PP can be used here for habitual actiions: They've always answered my letters. I've never been...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99176Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99176senthilvelann22http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99176http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99176.xmlSir II - The present perfect used for actions occuring in an imcomplete period. A. This may be expressed by the following diagram: |...............X..............X...................TS Each X represents an action. TS stands for "time of speaking" in the present. B. An imcomplete period may be indicated by "today" or this moring/afternoon/evening/week/month/year/century etc.," Note that the PP can be used with "this moring" only up to about one o'clock, because after that "this morning" becomes a completed period and actions occurring in it must be put into the simple past: (at 11 a.m) Tom has rung up three times this morning already. (at 2 pm) Tom rang up three times this morning. Similarly, "This afternoon"...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99172Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99172pieanne23http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99172http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99172.xmlThank you for all your examples, Senthilvelaan. I just think there's a typo: your second example for C should read: "John has written a number of short stories" , and not wrotehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99171Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99171senthilvelann24http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99171http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99171.xmlSir, I would like to reproduce the rules given for "PRESENT PERFECT" in the grammer book for the benefit of English Leaners like me. PP Usage: This tense may be said to be a sort of mixture of present and past. It always implies a strong connexion with the present. I - The PP used is used for recent actions when the time is not mentioned: A. The PP used with "just" for a recently completed action. He has just gone out = He went out a few minutes ago. B. The PP used for past actions whose time is not definite. 1.The PP is used for recent actions when the time is not mentioned (e.g) I have read the instructions but I dont understand them. (e.g) Have you had breakfast? - No, I haven't had it yet. compare...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99166Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99166Roro25http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/7/bdrlx/Post.htm#99166http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99166.xmlHello, paco! How are you? Yeah.... there's a very big difference in frequency in use . And your explanation sounds very reasonable to me! Maybe I took JTT's comment only from my very restricted view. Sorry, paco, .... we are digressing from your original subject all the time (h)http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99162Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99162paco200426http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99162http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99162.xmlHello Roro Does this sentence sound odd to you? Just from a curiosity. As no native speaker has answered to your question, I will show you the numbers of Google's hits for two sentences. The Earth revolves around the Sun. 27,800 The Earth is revolving around the Sun. 307 I don't know whether the sentence #2 is ungrammatical or not, but it may be true that the sentence is rarely used. The sentence #1 would belong to what grammars call as the use of the present tense for "permanent truth". The present progress tense is used to describe an event on-going at the speaker's utterance time, but its use somehow connotes the event will eventually end. pacohttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99151Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99151just the trout27http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99151http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99151.xmlNone of us has to be an authority to cite commonly known things about public figures. Comments like that aren't targeted against the other party in the argument. Comments like that should, one, have a degree of truthfulness to them. I'm not aware of any "commonly known things" that would lead one to suggest Mr Blair's speech is anything but normal. And two, what's raised should have something to do with the issue at hand. Mr Pedantic targeted the argument and sought to derail it. Did everyone miss Mr Pedantic's sleight of hand? The net result, after all the song and dance, is that sometimes, not often, the present perfect is used with past time adjuncts BUT learners should avoid these and treat them as part of their passive...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99146Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99146julielai28http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99146http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99146.xmlNone of us has to be an authority to cite commonly known things about public figures. Comments like that aren't targeted against the other party in the argument. Of course, authority is in the eyes of the beholder. But that applies to everybody on this board, including you and me. (Which means no one has to pay heed to what you or I have said thus far.) Whether each of us has "stature" is decided by the mass and not by one or two individuals. More authoritative sources (like OED) simply get consulted more often (than, say, Mr. Prescott). Considering how little I am consulted, I can safely say that I'm no authority (compared to some other posters and mods). Having said that, I'll leave the whole authority question for the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99143Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99143just the trout29http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99143http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99143.xmlI would take the 'last year' here as an afterthought, that clarifies 'already': 1. I've already discussed that (last year). Ergo, the collocation sometimes exists. What both Swan and the CGEL are pointing up is how prescriptive grammars and prescriptive grammarians, largely through their own ignorance, have misled students. The structure can be and is used as an afterthought but it doesn't neccessarily have to be so. CAVEAT REPEATED: Swan - "In fact, such structures are unusual but not impossible (though learners should avoid them). " JTT - "ENLs NORMALLY, ALMOST NEVER use the present perfect with past time adjuncts." The CGEL example would be more natural if expanded: 2. He has got up at five o'clock for the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99141Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99141Roro30http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99141http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99141.xmlDoes this sentence sound odd to you? Just from a curiosity.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99135Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99135CalifJim31http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99135http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99135.xml"It's great to be back on terra cotta." Ah, yes. Your equivalent to the former Mayor Daley of Chicago: "In my administration I promise we will rise to higher and higher platitudes". CJhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99134Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99134khoff32http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99134http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99134.xmlI've never seen Tony Blair cited as an authority for accurate linguistic usage before... I've never seen Mr Pedantic cited as an authority for accurate linguistic usage before... My comment was simply a repeat of the inane comment from Mr Pedantic which "seems to indicate that the poster is unable to defeat the other party's line of argument (thus resorting to personal comments)" In fact, Trout, Mr. Pedantic's status as moderator indicates that within the English Forum community, he is recognized as "an authority for accurate linguistic usage." You won't win friends and influence people here by calling his comments inane. I think his point was just that not everything said by public figures can be taken as a...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99133Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99133just the trout33http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99133http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99133.xmli) 'During the last 20 years, he has sometimes got up at 5 o'clock.' ii) 'For the last 20 years, he's usually got up at 5 o'clock.' The 'progressive' version sounds slightly awkward, though: iii) ??'He's been getting up usually at five o'clock for the last 20 years.' I would say that they're not particularly natural sentences; it would be unusual to find an opportunity of using them! The present progressive is not used in English to talk about events that have a long timespan. *He is riding his bicycle to work for ten years now.* That's why it sounds awkward. For i) and ii), while the content may not be very natural, ie. common, the structure is. These two sentences relate the experiences of this person and...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99132Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99132just the trout34http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/6/bdrlx/Post.htm#99132http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99132.xml"I've seen you somewhere before" is a common phrase. I think English "before" should include "now" when it stands alone. This is a bit confusing to me, because the Japanese equivalent to "before" excludes "now". paco Paco, The present perfect, for many of its uses, has a meaning of "up to now" but "now" isn't necessarily included. PP used for experience obviously doesn't include "now" because no one would ever say, "Have you ever skied?", if the questioner and the respondent were standing on skis, making their way down a mountain. Words like 'recently' and 'before', used in this PP fashion, just have a collective time feel to them.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99130Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:16 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99130just the trout35http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99130http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99130.xmlPlease avoid personal comments/attacks in the forum. If nothing else, this sort of comments seems to indicate that the poster is unable to defeat the other party's line of argument (thus resorting to personal comments). My comment was simply a repeat of the inane comment from Mr Pedantic which "seems to indicate that the poster is unable to defeat the other party's line of argument (thus resorting to personal comments)". Tony Blair: The son of a barrister and lecturer, Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh, but spent most of his childhood in Durham. At the age of 14 he returned to Edinburgh to finish his education at Fettes College. He studied law at Oxford, and went on to become a barrister himself.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99113Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99113Roro36http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99113http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99113.xmlI see.. Thank you, MrPedantic. I would not use them in writing. Your information gives me a broad, flexible perspective. Thank you, from the heart. Rorohttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99110Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99110MrPedantic37http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99110http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99110.xmlHello Roro 1. CGEL is the 'Cambridge Grammar of the English Language'. One or two members like to quote from it. It's quite expensive, but you can find some sample chapters here: http://uk.cambridge.org/linguistics/cgel/ 2. If you change it slightly, yes: i) 'During the last 20 years, he has sometimes got up at 5 o'clock.' ii) 'For the last 20 years, he's usually got up at 5 o'clock.' The 'progressive' version sounds slightly awkward, though: iii) ??'He's been getting up usually at five o'clock for the last 20 years.' I would say that they're not particularly natural sentences; it would be unusual to find an opportunity of using them! MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99104Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99104abbie194838http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99104http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99104.xmlI wonder if you realise that, "I haven't seen him before." means "I haven't seen him before NOW Obviously it must mean "I haven't seen him before NOW". If I were not looking at him, either in reality or in a photograph, I could not make a claim to never having seen him before Sorry, temico, I just assumed you would understand that, given your study of English to date. If "I haven't seen him before now." is correct English, then, "I haven't eaten lunch before now.", is also correct English, but does it mean, "I haven't eaten lunch is my life", may I ask?? It could equally well mean that temico; why not? One must never assume that one's own habits, whether in dining or in language, are the same for everyone else.http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99102Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99102Roro39http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99102http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99102.xmlVery perceptive..... We love you ! I have two questions to MrPedantic. May I ask you? 1. What does CGEL means? 2. Can I insert the word or into your examples ? That is... (1) He has usually/sometimes got up at five o'clock for the last 20 years. (2) He's been getting up usually at five o'clock for the last 20 years. If it's possible, then it would be .... more natural? or less? Please help me!http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99085Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99085MrPedantic40http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99085http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99085.xmlQuayle misspells Prescott even manages to misspell the spoken word. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99084Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99084MrPedantic41http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99084http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99084.xmlJTT: In the newspaper, just a few weeks ago, Tony Blair, in reference to the WMDs stated, "I've already discussed that last year." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I would take the 'last year' here as an afterthought, that clarifies 'already': 1. I've already discussed that (last year). The CGEL example would be more natural if expanded: 2. He has got up at five o'clock for the last 20 years. 2a. He's been getting up at five o'clock for the last 20 years. In the 2nd CGEL example, there seems to be a conflict between the adverbs, unless we treat the 2nd as a clarification: 3. We've already discussed this – yesterday. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99081Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99081MrPedantic42http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99081http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99081.xmlFor non-UK members, here are a few Prescottisms. Translations are available for those whose first language is English: "I would like to make some start in my speech." "It's not the sanity of the picket lines that bothers me, it's the sanity of human life." "On housing and charities you have difficulties about the financing of long-term finances affecting those housing, very real problems and I'm sure that we agree with them, but it was good for conference but it wasn't much action, it was an awful lot of getting the conference going, yes I will give way." "For the first time hypothecating any real increase in fuel duty to roads and public transport and I invite them to say if this hypothecation they are compared to adopt...http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99071Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99071temico43http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/5/bdrlx/Post.htm#99071http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99071.xmlThanks for the reply Abbie, Re: I haven't seen him before." (i.e. I've never seen him in my life) I wonder if you realise that, "I haven't seen him before." means "I haven't seen him before NOW( this very moment)." A person CAN'T say "I haven't seen HIM." if s/he hasn't SEEN him (at least once) or DOESN'T even who this HIM is? Or can he/she?? If "I haven't seen him before now." is correct English, then, "I haven't eaten lunch before now.", is also correct English, but does it mean, "I haven't eaten lunch is my life", may I ask??http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#99056Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99056paco200444http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#99056http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99056.xmlHello Temico "I've seen you somewhere before" is a common phrase. I think English "before" should include "now" when it stands alone. This is a bit confusing to me, because the Japanese equivalent to "before" excludes "now". pacohttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#99037Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:99037abbie194845http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#99037http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-99037.xmlIf you wish to say that a person is completely unknown to you, you would say: "I haven't seen him before" (i.e. I've never seen him in my life) If you wish to say that a person was not around before a specific time, you would say: "I didn't see temico before the party" (i.e. I am acquainted with temico, but I didn't see him on this occasion.)http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#98997Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:98997julielai46http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#98997http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-98997.xmlI've never seen Mr Pedantic cited as an authority for accurate linguistic usage before... Please avoid personal comments/attacks in the forum. If nothing else, this sort of comments seems to indicate that the poster is unable to defeat the other party's line of argument (thus resorting to personal comments).http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#98995Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:98995pieanne47http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#98995http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-98995.xmlOK, I didn't know about Quayle! LOL, indeed Thanks, Juliehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#98994Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:98994julielai48http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#98994http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-98994.xmlHi Pieanne, Bush misspeaks and Quayle misspells (like tomatoe) Make a quadratic equation out of that... 2 Bush square + 3 Quayle square + the unknown British constant (maybe???) = Prescott Does my algebra seem right to you guys?http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#98993Tue, 26 May 2009 05:46:17 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:98993pieanne49http://www.englishforums.com/English/IHaveEatenLunch/4/bdrlx/Post.htm#98993http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments35-98993.xml:s Can someone explain, please?