http://www.englishforums.com/English/AltUsageEnglish/Forum7075.htmThe second forum for the usage of the English language.enXMOD (Build: 3616.28671)http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#704527Wed, 27 May 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:704527Usenet0http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#704527http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-704527.xmlAre you suggesting that the British wanted the Pakistan/India split? As I understand it, the Brits and Indians did not want the split; the Muslims did, and got it. As I understand it, the Hindus and most of the Brits didn't want the split but Mountbatten was in a hurry to get home so he caved in to Jinnah. (Did his wife's adultery give him itchy feet? Or was it the food? Will we ever know?) I agree that it was a botched job, though. 'Twas shameful. Mickwickhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#703518Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:703518Usenet1http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#703518http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-703518.xmlHalf of "Pakistan" is Indian, the rest Afghani (Baluchi and Pashtun). Surely if anything in that sentence deserves to be in scare quotes it's 'Indian', not 'Pakistan'. I interpret '"Pakistan"' as ... think that independence was botched by the British and that India and Pakistan would be better off as one nation... Are you suggesting that the British wanted the Pakistan/India split? As I understand it, the Brits and Indians did not want the split; the Muslims did, and got it. I agree that it was a botched job, though. m.http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#703364Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:703364Usenet2http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#703364http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-703364.xmlSind is Pakistani, thank you very much. Half of "Pakistan" is Indian, the rest Afghani (Baluchi and Pashtun). Surely if anything in that sentence deserves to be in scare quotes it's 'Indian', not 'Pakistan'. I interpret '"Pakistan"' as 'so-called Pakistan', or perhaps 'that spurious entity, Pakistan'. Now, you might well think that independence was botched by the British and that India and Pakistan would be better off as one nation but it's too late for all that now. Pakistan exists, it is a fact. It's too late for scare quotes. That 'Indian', on the other hand, is crying out for scare quotes. What are you trying to say? Something racial or cultural? Perhaps...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#702773Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:702773Usenet3http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#702773http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-702773.xml(And Sindh is Indian, whereas the Northwest Territories are Afghan, thank you very much. But I digress.) Sind is Pakistani, thank you very much. Half of "Pakistan" is Indian, the rest Afghani (Baluchi and Pashtun). The Northwest Territories were, under a British treaty, supposed to be returned to the Afghani amir around the time the Taliban took over. One of those 99-year lease things like over Hong Kong. I can find the details for you eventually, or you can Google it up. D. "Is it not better to fall into the hands of a murder, than into the dreams of a lustful woman?" -Nietszche Zarathustra trans. Commonhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#673602Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:673602Usenet4http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#673602http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-673602.xml(And Sindh is Indian, whereas the Northwest Territories are Afghan, thank you very much. But I digress.) Sind is Pakistani, thank you very much. Actually, so are (or were) the Northwest Territories. Oh boy! What's going on? Are you having a giraffe? Mickwick, the universally concerned intellectual optic of integrityhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#673551Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:673551Usenet5http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#673551http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-673551.xml(And Sindh is Indian, whereas the Northwest Territories are Afghan, thank you very much. But I digress.) Sind is Pakistani, thank you very much. Mickwick, the universally concerned intellectual optic of integrityhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#673162Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:673162Usenet6http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#673162http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-673162.xmlThe terms "Latinos" and "Hispanics" are mainly governmentese catch-alls. The ... break everyone down into ethnic origins, even in broad terms. But Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, and anyone born in this country whoever his/her parents are or where they're ... stuff out already. And if no one did, What's wrong with you people? I thought y'all was for-real pendants hereabouts! I'm terrribly sorry, but, as was a certain Rick Blaine with regard to the water situation in Casablanca, you've been misinformed. Captain Louis Renaulthttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#673142Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:673142Usenet7http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/11/hpndn/Post.htm#673142http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-673142.xmlRaymond S. Wise (Email Removed) wrote to "Maria Conlon" (Email Removed): Haitians aren't Latino/Hispanic. "Citizenship" doesn't quite work as a term to use when speaking of such matters because the children born in the US of Latino parents are American citizens: I stand corrected: there really *was* no need for *my* flip retort because what I said *had* been said already. Hence I must apologize to Ms. Conlon for telling her what she'd already heard, and to Mr. Wise and the rest o' y'all pedants for underestimating youse peeps. I promise to do better in the future. Really! D. "Any sentence that begins 'Humans would never be so stupid as to...' is very probably wrong." -David M....http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#673127Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:673127Usenet8http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#673127http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-673127.xmlThe terms "Latinos" and "Hispanics" are mainly governmentese catch-alls. The actual people are either Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Columbians, Hatians, etc. Sticking with their citizenship seems better than trying to break everyone down into ethnic origins, even in broad terms. But Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, and anyone born in this country whoever his/her parents are or where they're from is a U.S. citizen. Including a lot of Spanish-surnamed whose ancestors were living in the areas that are now Texas, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, and California long before the U.S. stole half of Mexico in 1848-52 (yes, San Francisco was a sleepy little town in Northern Mexico until the U.S. "conquered" it). (And while...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#668471Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:668471Usenet9http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#668471http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-668471.xmlOn Fri, 19 Sep 2003, in alt.usage.english, message (Email Removed), Raymond S. Wise (Email Removed) writes become And yet you (I think it was you, but it ... fathers, was racist. But that is the essence of "conversion". It wasn't me. I'm in favor of a certain sort of homogenization, I suppose, in that I am in favor ... set of laws, with limited exceptions for some religious practices. None of that is conversion. It is, at most, adaptation. True, but it is the same as the "behave as we do, or you won't fit in" message that you said earlier that you disliked. In my opinion, it is the only way for a society to function, and changes to the acceptable behaviour tend to be gradual. Mark Browne If replying by...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#666406Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:666406Usenet10http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#666406http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-666406.xml}> }>>> }>> Typo. The letter "o" and "i" are beside one another in my keyboard. }>> }>> ... and it would be "*on* my keyboard." I don't think that's another }>> "o" and "i" mishit, is it? }> }> No, it isn't. So, you say "the m key *on* my keyboard"? I didn't know it. } } Yep. And we say "I didn't know that." Some of us say "I did not know that." And "Yup." R. J. Valentinehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#666403Wed, 27 May 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:666403Usenet11http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#666403http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-666403.xml... and it would be "*on* my keyboard." I don't think that's another "o" and "i" mishit, is it? No, it isn't. So, you say "the m key *on* my keyboard"? I didn't know it. Yep. And we say "I didn't know that." -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whomhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#666272Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:666272Usenet12http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#666272http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-666272.xmlAnd I would specifically exclude the possibility that "Conquering a ... true example of racism, there is no possibility of conversion. And yet you (I think it was you, but it may have been Evan) said that asking people to behave as they did, and unlike their fathers, was racist. But that is the essence of "conversion". It wasn't me. I'm in favor of a certain sort of homogenization, I suppose, in that I am in favor of every child in a country being taught the standard dialect, but I'm in favor of diglossia, so that the child would still retain his mother tongue (and the cultural behaviors which are attached to that). I'm also in favor of the people of a country being governed by the same set of laws, with...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#665909Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:665909Usenet13http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#665909http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-665909.xml^^ "Next to each other" or (fancier) "adjacent." ... and it would be "*on* my keyboard." I don't think that's another "o" and "i" mishit, is it? No, it isn't. So, you say "the m key *on* my keyboard"? I didn't know it. "Mishit" looks funny, eh? Indeed. I had to think about it for some minutes, as I was mistrying to misrelate it to "***".  Saludos cordiales Javi Conjunction of an irregular verb: I am firm. You are obstinate. He is a pig-headed fool.http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#665900Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:665900Usenet14http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#665900http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-665900.xmlRobert Lieblich filted: By the way, "beside one another" does not sound well ... understood, but how would it be expressed by a native? "Next to each other" or (fancier) "adjacent." Also "side by side" or (jocularly) "cheek by jowl"..rhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#665871Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:665871Usenet15http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#665871http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-665871.xml^^ Typo. The letter "o" and "i" are beside one another ... understood, but how would it be expressed by a native? "Next to each other" or (fancier) "adjacent." ... and it would be "*on* my keyboard." I don't think that's another "o" and "i" mishit, is it? "Mishit" looks funny, eh? Skitt (in Hayward, California)http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#665673Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:665673Usenet16http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/10/hpndn/Post.htm#665673http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-665673.xml^^ I like that. Typo. The letter "o" and "i" are beside one another in my keyboard. By the way, "beside one another" does ... expressing it. I suppose that its menaing can be easily understood, but how would it be expressed by a native? "Next to each other" or (fancier) "adjacent." Bob Lieblich Well, that's how *I* would do ithttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#665665Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:665665Usenet17http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#665665http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-665665.xmlSo I deleted the draft I had wrotten. ^^ I like that. Typo. The letter "o" and "i" are beside one another in my keyboard. By the way, "beside one another" does not sound well to my non-native ear, but I cannot now find other way of expressing it. I suppose that its menaing can be easily understood, but how would it be expressed by a native?  Saludos cordiales Javi Conjunction of an irregular verb: I am firm. You are obstinate. He is a pig-headed fool.http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#665648Wed, 27 May 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:665648Usenet18http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#665648http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-665648.xmlOn Thu, 18 Sep 2003, in message , Javi (Email Removed) writes So I deleted the draft I had wrotten. ^^ I like that. Mark Browne If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the "From" address will be rejectedhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#665232Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:665232Usenet19http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#665232http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-665232.xmlI'd like to know whether in other societies there was the possibility tha=t a non-white person could purchase a certificate of "whiteness". I see it mo=re as an evidence of a classist society than a racist one. It might have been available (perhaps through the judiciary) in the Jim Crow (segregationist) South in the US. I know that it was typical for the racial laws to be challenged by persons who wanted to be classified as 'white' or as 'non-colored' or 'non-black'.http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#665221Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:665221Usenet20http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#665221http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-665221.xml^ 1795 ^^ So, a law against racial privileges is an evidence of a racist society? It can be, yes. In this case, it indicates that an edict was necessary to correct one aspect of the ... edict might have been an attempt to correct behaviour not covered by earlier laws rather than to correct earlier laws. I believe the latter is the right case. It's worth noting that either this edict or a later one allowed non- whites (i.e., those who belonged to neither the peninsulares or criollo classes) to purchase a certificate declaring them to be white. Such a certificate wouldn't be worth having in a non-racist society. I'd like to know whether in other societies there was the possibility that a non-white person could purchase a...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664965Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664965Usenet21http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664965http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664965.xmlOn Wed, 17 Sep 2003, in message (Email Removed), Raymond S. Wise (Email Removed) writes And I would specifically exclude the possibility that "Conquering a territory and treating its people like dirt unless they convert ... could be, in itself, an example of racism. In a true example of racism, there is no possibility of conversion. And yet you (I think it was you, but it may have been Evan) said that asking people to behave as they did, and unlike their fathers, was racist. But that is the essence of "conversion". Mark Browne If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the "From" address will be rejectedhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664694Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664694Usenet22http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664694http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664694.xmlYou and I disagree on what constitutes racism, then. To me, racism must be a belief which attributes qualities to ... an emperor had chosen such a man to be his successor. I can't imagine that happening with the British Empire. Why not? We let Germans do it. Mickwickhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664606Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664606Usenet23http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664606http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664606.xmlMWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ ... "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".) I say "want" as /wAnt/; I'm surprised to learn that it is significantly less common than /wOnt/. I also say ... rather than the "cot" vowel /A/. /woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be regarded as an error, to me. For what it is worth, the *Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary* at http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=91129&desc=wont&ph=on or http://tinyurl.com/ns4w gives for the word "wont" only /w@Unt/ for the British pronunciation and /woUnt/ for the American pronunciation....http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664426Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664426Usenet24http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664426http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664426.xmlThus spake Raymond S. Wise: Racism is an act, or pattern of actions. Conquering a territory and treating its people like dirt unless they convert ... doesn't matter that the Romans didn't refer to the Gauls as Frogs, or think of them as stinking of garlic. And I would specifically exclude the possibility that "Conquering a territory and treating its people like dirt unless they convert and become Roman (or French) " could be, in itself, an example of racism. In a true example of racism, there is no possibility of conversion. The modern idea of race and racism cannot escape the influence of pseudoscientific ideas of race which developed after the time of the Romans. If I thought that the Spanish were entirely free of...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664412Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664412Usenet25http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/9/hpndn/Post.htm#664412http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664412.xmlAnyway, the Legion (or Division) of Hell was a force of slave-cowboy cavalry that rode into battle under a black ... under their saddles for a few hours. Their only weapons were a bamboo spear and a complete and utter ruthlessness. Fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope being already taken, I presume. Michael West Melbourne, Australiahttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664352Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664352Usenet26http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664352http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664352.xmlThus spake Raymond S. Wise: You and I disagree on what constitutes racism, then. To me, racism must be a belief which attributes qualities to ... if any empires were built by people before the 15th century who were inspired by Aristotle and held that belief. Racism is an act, or pattern of actions. Conquering a territory and treating its people like dirt unless they convert and become Roman (or French) is an example of such actions. An extreme example even. It doesn't matter that the Romans didn't refer to the Gauls as Frogs, or think of them as stinking of garlic. Simon R. Hugheshttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664343Wed, 27 May 2009 04:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664343Usenet27http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664343http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664343.xmlI don't see how this can be reconciled with history. ... includes the Soviet empire. It certainly includes the Spanish empire! Why do you say "after the 14th Century"? I would say that all empires are in some way racist, if only because they say "you are not fit to rule, so we will do it for you". You and I disagree on what constitutes racism, then. To me, racism must be a belief which attributes qualities to another race that extend to each individual member. I can well imagine the Roman Empire ruled by a black African, if an emperor had chosen such a man to be his successor. I can't imagine that happening with the British Empire. Now, there may well have been racist empires before the 14th century. My...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664328Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:09 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664328Usenet28http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664328http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664328.xmlMWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ ... "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".) I say "want" as /wAnt/; I'm surprised to learn that it is significantly less common than /wOnt/. I also say ... rather than the "cot" vowel /A/. /woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be regarded as an error, to me. According to Chambers "wont" is "historically /wVnt/, commonly /woUnt/" (my interpretation of their pronunciation symbols). But I think it's also commonly /wA.nt/. Former UK Prime Minister John Major supposedly pronounced "want" as /wVnt/, though I don't remember ever noticing...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664312Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664312Usenet29http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664312http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664312.xmlI guess that's true to some extent with regard to ... although their heirs in America kept it up considerably longer.) (I'm not sure I totally understand your point but what the hell ...) I'm on the same ground as Javi ... that was how leading elements in British America thought. Africans 'fit to be property'? Yes. (Also Europeans. Wives, for example.) I want to add that white slaves (debt slaves) where not uncommon in the Americas prior to the nineteenth century. And such attitudes were undoubtedly found on racism. (And sexism.) I concede the point.  Saludos cordiales Javi Conjunction of an irregular verb: I am firm. You are obstinate. He is a pig-headed fool.http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664274Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664274Usenet30http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664274http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664274.xmlMWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ ... "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".) I say "want" as /wAnt/; I'm surprised to learn that it is significantly less common than /wOnt/. I also say ... rather than the "cot" vowel /A/. /woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be regarded as an error, to me. I think /woUnt/ is the most common British pronunciation. I'm /woUnt/, anyway. (I'm /w@nt/ for 'want', more or less.) Mickwickhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664277Wed, 27 May 2009 04:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664277Usenet31http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664277http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664277.xmlR F filted: /woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be regarded as an error, to me. It's the pronunciation used by Jonathan Miller in the person of Bertrand Russell...if it's an error, it's one made by some pretty educated people.. The central point of the same sketch, by the way, may shed some light on the nearby thread about saying "keys" when only one key is meant...if I interpret it correctly, it seems to be saying that "any apples" and "some apples" cannot refer to a set with some unspecified cardinality, but that "apples" *can* describe the same number...if the number is unity, then by analogy "keys" can refer to a single key..rhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664262Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664262Usenet32http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664262http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664262.xmlI think the British Empire had a largely 'There but ... for this, but the change happened at about that time.) I guess that's true to some extent with regard to their actual tributaries, but that's only because they largely viewed ... fit to be property. (I'm speaking of pre-nineteenth century here, although their heirs in America kept it up considerably longer.) (I'm not sure I totally understand your point but what the hell ...) I'm on the same ground as Javi here. It seems that American Britons were more racist in their attitudes towards Indians than the home government and other leading people in the home country were. Indeed I believe that, just as in Spanish America, British 'criollo' disgust at the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664219Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664219Usenet33http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664219http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664219.xmlI didn't really. I heard him say 'want' and assumed that he would say 'wont' in the same way. MWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ and four for "wont": /wOnt/, /woUnt/, also /w@nt/, /wAnt/. (The "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".) I say "want" as /wAnt/; I'm surprised to learn that it is significantly less common than /wOnt/. I also say "wont" as /wAnt/, but then it's not a word I say very often. Offhand I can't think of any or words where I use the "caught" vowel /O/ rather than the "cot" vowel /A/. /woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664191Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664191Usenet34http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/8/hpndn/Post.htm#664191http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664191.xmlAs am I, but where did you find an MP3 of him saying "wont"? I didn't really. I heard him say 'want' and assumed that he would say 'wont' in the same way. MWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ and four for "wont": /wOnt/, /woUnt/, also /w@nt/, /wAnt/. (The "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".) Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >Marge: You liked Rashomon. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >Homer: That's not how *I* rememberPalo Alto, CA 94304 > it. (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664168Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664168Usenet35http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664168http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664168.xmlI think the British Empire had a largely 'There but for the grace ...' flavour until the Indian Mutiny or ... Whiggish and racist. (The Mutiny itself wasn't necessarily the trigger for this, but the change happened at about that time.) I guess that's true to some extent with regard to their actual tributaries, but that's only because they largely viewed Indians in North America as an obstacle to be removed and Africans as fit to be property. (I'm speaking of pre-nineteenth century here, although their heirs in America kept it up considerably longer.) Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories > Bauplan is just the German word 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >for blueprint. Typically, onePalo Alto, CA 94304...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664164Wed, 27 May 2009 04:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664164Usenet36http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664164http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664164.xmlIncidentally, an MP3 out there on the WWW suggests that Don Pardo (of whom I had never heard until just now) is WIW - 'Wont'-Is-'Want'. As am I, but where did you find an MP3 of him saying "wont"? I didn't really. I heard him say 'want' and assumed that he would say 'wont' in the same way. I think this is the link: http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=5227&drop=17 Mickwickhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664144Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664144Usenet37http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664144http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664144.xmlWhy do you say "after the 14th Century"? I would ... fit to rule, so we will do it for you". This may just be my own personal spin on things, but it's always seemed to me that most empires and ... it viscerally "wrong" in the way colonialist Europeans would have felt about being subject to an Indian or African empire. I think the British Empire had a largely 'There but for the grace ...' flavour until the Indian Mutiny or thereabouts. Afterwards, it became far more pompous, triumphalist, Whiggish and racist. (The Mutiny itself wasn't necessarily the trigger for this, but the change happened at about that time.) Mickwickhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664136Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664136Usenet38http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664136http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664136.xmlThe 49.43% Annoying class. Incidentally, an MP3 out there on the WWW suggests that Don Pardo (of whom I had never heard until just now) is WIW - 'Wont'-Is-'Want'. As am I, but where did you find an MP3 of him saying "wont"? Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >The law of supply and demand tells us 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >that when the price of something isPalo Alto, CA 94304 >artificially set below market level,http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664126Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664126Usenet39http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664126http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664126.xmlSo which class did Don Pardo belong to? The 49.43% Annoying class. Incidentally, an MP3 out there on the WWW suggests that Don Pardo (of whom I had never heard until just now) is WIW - 'Wont'-Is-'Want'. Mickwickhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664123Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664123Usenet40http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664123http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664123.xmlSo which class did Don Pardo belong to? The 49.43% Annoying class. http://www.amiannoying.com/2002/view.aspx?ID=5106 Mick 'Tell them what they won' wickhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664041Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664041Usenet41http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664041http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664041.xml(Javi:) Interesting. Let me think about it: some non-criollos wanted to ... see it as less racist than the so-called "positive discrimination". An entertaining argument but, alas, not very convincing. Every book and website I can find says that Spanish colonial society ... subject of race and they furiously defended the large gap between themselves and the next group down, the half-castes. (Pardos?) So which class did Don Pardo belong to?http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664056Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664056Usenet42http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664056http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664056.xmlI don't see how this can be reconciled with history. ... includes the Soviet empire. It certainly includes the Spanish empire! Why do you say "after the 14th Century"? I would say that all empires are in some way racist, if only because they say "you are not fit to rule, so we will do it for you". This may just be my own personal spin on things, but it's always seemed to me that most empires and most slavery before interaction with the Americas and with sub-Saharan Africa had more of the flavor of "There but for the grace of (pick your favorite deity) go I". The ones on top didn't view themselves as inherently better, just currently stronger, and there was a recognition that in other times, the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664026Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664026Usenet43http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/7/hpndn/Post.htm#664026http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664026.xmlIt is curious that a country whose Crown tried to dismantle racial privileges be called racist. Which were those racial privileges? I guess that they were not sanctioned by law. You might be right, I don't know. But the privileges were certainly sanctioned by custom and by the town councils and other local bodies that administered justice at a practical level in Spanish America. The problem here seems to be that we are arguing about different things - or, more accurately, I am arguing about one thing and sometimes you have also been arguing about that same one thing but at other times you have been arguing about two or three other things as well. I'd say the things are as follows: Me: Spanish America was racist from top to...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#664018Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:664018Usenet44http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#664018http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-664018.xmlOh dear. Yes there were. Otherwise why the Edict of Aranjuez of 10th February 1794 permitting non-criollos to adopt the title Don in the ^ 1795^^ American empire? So, a law against racial privileges is an evidence of a racist society? It can be, yes. In this case, it indicates that an edict was necessary to correct one aspect of the racist behaviour of the white (and self- declared white) colonists. It might also indicate that, before the edict, there had been a law forbidding non-whites to use the title Don, but I admit that this might not be the case: the edict might have been an attempt to correct behaviour not covered by earlier laws rather than to correct earlier laws. It's worth noting that either this edict or a later one...http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663948Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:663948Usenet45http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663948http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-663948.xmlOn Tue, 16 Sep 2003, in message (Email Removed), Raymond S. Wise (Email Removed) writes I don't see how this can be reconciled with history. If nothing else, I would identify Spain as having had ... that did not exhibit some level of racism, and that includes the Soviet empire. It certainly includes the Spanish empire! Why do you say "after the 14th Century"? I would say that all empires are in some way racist, if only because they say "you are not fit to rule, so we will do it for you". Mark Browne If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the "From" address will be rejectedhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663939Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:663939Usenet46http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663939http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-663939.xmlOn Tue, 16 Sep 2003, in message (Email Removed), Evan Kirshenbaum (Email Removed) writes That's it exactly. Spanish society as you present it is tolerant of differences as long as they're kept private. Gypsies who don't ... that as a mindset to be discouraged and, indeed, of evidence of what we call "racism" or at least bigotry. Whilst I agree that this can be called "racist", having to fit in also applies to people who are nominally already part of "mainstream" society. Saying that people should conform is not, of itself, racist. It is a characteristic of many societies, and is necessary for those societies to function. The question is whether the society is one that "should" function....http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663859Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:663859Usenet47http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663859http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-663859.xmlDamn! I canceled that message few minutes after sending it, so I'll not answer any post about it. Unfortunately, many Usenet servers do not properly process cancellation messages. Your posting might disappear from your own news service, but it's likely to stay out there for ever. David I say what it occurs to me to say. == The address is valid today, but I change it periodically.http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663826Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:663826Usenet48http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663826http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-663826.xmlReally? Did I wrote that verbatim? I must tell my ... is just that you understand what you'd like to read). Damn! I canceled that message few minutes after sending it, so I'll not answer any post about it. You wrote "We don't need to be a multiracial society because we've never been racists." It's at ; scroll up to your first response to Raymond Wise, currently response 27. Yes, I wrote it, and I'm receiving due punishment. But I still think that racism was not a characteristic of the Spanish empire, and certainly is not of the Spanish society.  Saludos cordiales Javi Conjunction of an irregular verb: I am firm. You are obstinate. He is a pig-headed fool.http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663660Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:42:10 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:663660Usenet49http://www.englishforums.com/English/LatinosOrHispanics/6/hpndn/Post.htm#663660http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments7075-663660.xmlRead above: you said "we've never been racists". Really? Did I wrote that verbatim? I must tell my psychiatrist that I write things that I don't remember later (or maybe it is just that you understand what you'd like to read).. You wrote "We don't need to be a multiracial society because we've never been racists." It's at ; scroll up to your first response to Raymond Wise, currently response 27. Jerry Friedman