Search results for 'tag:Accents tag:Idioms' matching tags 'Accents' and 'Idioms'

Re: Native-speaker/native language

Tanit — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:03:57 GMT

Forbes

I remember listening to a radio programme about the varieties of forms of speech in Italy ... They simply change language like they change clothes without worrying about the status of their "home" speech.

There's some truth in that article. My parents, for instance, used to speak in Sardinian (not a dialect, but recognised as an endangered language by the UNESCO) when talking to each other or to their relatives, but they would only speak Italian with my brother and me. I grew up monolingual, and although I can understand Sardinian, I am unable to articulate a sentence that contains more than a few words!

Many people who speak both Italian and their dialect, although able to switch from the first to the second depending on the context, speak a form of Italian that I would classify as regional and sub-standard. I noticed that people from Southern Italy (I have little experience of Northern Italy) who speak also a dialect usually don't speak standard Italian, but a form of language deeply affected by their dialect. Accent is not an issue. I find some grammatical structures odd, as well as the choice of some verb modes, tenses and aspects (ex. past simple versus present perfect, indicative versus subjunctive), and have problems with some vocabulary (let alone idioms, of course). I am usually able to understand the general meaning, though.

Re: I need serious advice. Help! :'(

Kooyeen — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:47:55 GMT

My problem (but I know it's normal, even for native speakers) is that I only understand what I already know. For example, "what are you doing?", "Hi, my name is...", that's simple stuff I know, and I understand, I don't listen to the sounds, I just understand. But if you say something I don't know yet, a word, an idiom, whatever, then I don't understand (my brain doesn't associate that with anything). So I have to listen to the basic sounds, to see if I can figure out the words. And if you speak slowly, I might be able to figure out new words just listening to the sounds... but if you talk fast, you skip sounds, you have an accent, etc. (like in the clips I posted), I can't identify the basic sounds, or I mishear them because they are not "pure" (they are similar to what they should be, but for some reason they are "distorted", "modified" by an accent or ast and careless speech).
I believe you natives understand because you figure out what people say, not because you recognize the sounds perfectly, and this must be true because I do the same in Italian (I don't listen for sounds, I listen directly for patterns). So I believe I'll understand more when my vocabulary is better.

Re: Accent in Hull, Leeds or Sheffield ?

Anonymous — Thu, 17 May 2007 13:31:15 GMT

Thanx for your answer.

may i ask why do you think you have a hard time understanding people in Hull ?

Is it because of their accent ? Idioms ? something else ?

And, if anyone can help, what is the accent there like ?
Can someone give an example ?

Thanx.

Re: how do you practise listening in English

Kooyeen — Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:42:19 GMT

La Rose wrote:
me also i have proble in Listening .....but i began by good book called "Speak English Like An American " Amy Gillett its wonderful book to improve ur listening , pronounciation & know every day langauge. I get difficult to listen from BBC now because am just begginer

Hi La Rose, that book, "Speak English Like an American" is a book on American idioms, it's not really meant to improve your accent or listening skills. And if you are trying to speak like an American, no wonder you find it difficult to understand what they say on BBC! The accent is pretty different, on BBC there are mainly British accents. Anyway don't worry, improving listening skills takes a lot of time and a lot of practice and study. That might well take several months or years. But the most impostant thing is not to give up and lose interest in the English language. Good luck.

Re: Cool Breeze thanks the Englishforums team

Cool Breeze — Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:22:58 GMT

Hi Kooyeen

There is nothing to forgive! I am certainly not in the least offended by your post. In fact, I enjoyed reading it tremendously! I even agree with you to some extent on some of the points you made.

I am the first person to admit that my knowledge of English isn't as good as that of a native speaker. I know that my knowledge of my mother tongue, Finnish, is far better than my English. I am conscious of my shortcomings. May I just point out that all speakers of all living languages are learners. I learn new Finnish words all the time, and native speakers of English learn new words as these words make their way into the language. The learning process is incessant owing to the fact that languages evolve.

You say that every nonnative speaker wants to write, speak and sound like a native speaker. That is not true. I don't. I have mentioned this earlier in my posts in other threads. I have always thought it paradoxical that even though English has an extremely large vocabulary, native speakers are in many situations limited to a few fixed phrases that they 'must' use to sound natural. I don't necessarily want to sound 'natural'. That's why I don't always conform to generally accepted phrases and idioms.

Nor do all others. In the Far East, for example, an English dictionary has been published which contains such words as farang and actsy. They say they have colonised the English language. English is the lingua franca these days, and whether native speakers like it or not, it will transform in the various localities and connexions where it is used.

Another factor is what I might call national pride -- for lack of a better word. I don't want to sound British, American, Canadian, Australian or anything else when I speak English. I am a Finn and I want to sound Finnish. I know my accent is close to American English and I have been taken for an American on a number of occasions. Finland is an unknown country and I prefer it that people know where I am from when I travel. I am often in for better treatment that way. Finland never colonised anything and has not been involved in any major international wars or skirmishes recently, which means it has few foes. I never have to hear 'Finn, go home' slogans on my travels. A couple of years ago the US embassy in Latvia or Lithuania issued a warning to US citizens travelling in the Baltic countries asking them to keep a low profile and to avoid conversation in a loud voice. We all know why.

You are partly right as to what I consider my 'main reference point' regarding correct usage. It is usually native speakers when the use of a word or an expression is in question. When grammar is involved, we must bear in mind the fact that many authoritative grammar books were written by nonnative speakers such as Otto Jespersen and R.W. Zandvoort. Of course that does not mean that grammar books by natives are no good.

Please feel free to post a reply, Kooyeen. I look forward to it! As a matter of fact, I'm counting on getting one!

Cheers
CB
PS: I hope no one minds my spelling of nonnative. I have not been able to find a hyphenated non-native in any dictionary.

Re: simple meaning of dialect

Selecter — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 13:18:54 GMT

dialect
     n : the usage or vocabulary that is characteristic of a specific
         group of people; "the immigrants spoke an odd dialect of
         English"; "he has a strong German accent" [syn: idiom,
         accent

Re: Native-speaker intuition.

Cool Breeze — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:15:57 GMT

Englishuser wrote:
I couldn't agree more: English idioms and spellings tend to be difficult even for many a native speaker! I would also like to add that the size of the English lexion makes learning English relatively difficult.

Just out of curiosity: What exactly do you try to sound like on your trips overseas?

Englishuser

Hi Englishuser

Yes, the English lexicon is larger than that of most languages. However, since many common words have numerous meanings, learning the basic vocabulary is quite easy. For example, this is what one can say if one knows the prepositions and the verb to get:

I get letters from him. It's getting late. You're getting on my nerves. Let's get off the bus. Get out of here! I don't get on with him. What are you getting at? He doesn't get about much anymore due to his sickness. He got over his illness. And so on. In many languages one needs a different word for each of these meanings.

Many years ago I read a study which said that an English blue-collar worker uses about 500 different words when he speaks. German has a smaller lexicon than English, but a German worker needs 800 words because in German one word doesn't have as many meanings as in English. I don't really know if these figures are accurate but my logic tells me there may be some truth in them.

As to your question what I try to sound like when I am overseas, I am not quite sure I know the answer. If I am in the USA, sounding American won't be a hindrance, so I suppose I don't try to avoid sounding American, at least not consciously. I guess I usually sound more or less Finnish or Scandinavian when I speak English. A retired opera singer has told me I have an exceptionally acute ear for music and rhythm, which explains my ability to imitate some accents. I can mimic a BBC newscaster if I have to, but it doesn't come very naturally to me. I have to force myself to it, so I never use that 'accent'.

Cheers

Re: Native-speaker intuition.

Englishuser — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:02:48 GMT

Hi Cool Breeze,

You wrote:

What is difficult about English are the countless idioms and spelling.

By the way, when I am abroad I try not to sound British or American even though I have been told that I am able to mimic the American accent quite well.

I couldn't agree more: English idioms and spellings tend to be difficult even for many a native speaker! I would also like to add that the size of the English lexion makes learning English relatively difficult.

Just out of curiosity: What exactly do you try to sound like on your trips overseas?

Englishuser

Re: Native-speaker intuition.

Cool Breeze — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:36:44 GMT

Englishuser wrote:
A non-native speaker who has immersed himself or herself with highbrow literature written in a foreign language could very well have a more vivid vocabulary and a better knowledge of the grammar of the language than the average native speaker. At least as far as the 'standard version' of the language is concerned.

Englishuser

Hi Englishuser

I agree, learning the grammar of a language can be relatively easy for a person who is familiar with the grammatical structures of his native language. As far as I am concerned, English grammar was a piece of cake for me even though it differs considerably from Finnish grammar. It was easy because there is so little of it; an English word has very few forms: write, writes, writing, wrote, written. That's all there is written as single words. Of course has written, having written etc. exist in addition to the five basic forms.

However, in Finnish, for instance, you need six forms just to say something affirmative in the present tense, a different inflection for every person (I, you, he, we, you, they). You need another six forms to ask a question etc. Nouns have more than a hundred forms and an adjective has hundreds of inflected forms. Some English people have said to me they don't belive me when I say that. That's because they think the languages they may have some knowledge of, usually German or French, are as complicated in structure as a language can be. They know of nothing else.

What is difficult about English are the countless idioms and spelling.

By the way, when I am abroad I try not to sound British or American even though I have been told that I am able to mimic the American accent quite well. Finland was never a major country in world politics or colonization and I often get good service just because people don't really know anything about my country. They have no preconceived notions.

I was once having a drink in a hotel bar in New Orleans. The man sitting next to me asked me: "Where do you come from?" I said: "Finland." He said: "Which state is it in?" So I got wise and a couple of days later when a fiftyish woman asked me the same question, I said: "I'm from Europe." Her face lit up: "That's marvelous! I've got relatives in the same country."

Cheers
CB

Re: How can you tell whether someone is a non-native speaker?

MrPedantic — Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:52:17 GMT

Hello EU

I'm not an expert in these matters; so what follows should probably be taken with a pinch of salt.

Some stray thoughts, in no particular order:

1. I think Scandinavian, Dutch and German natives have the best chance of sounding convincingly "British English". I have several such people in mind whose original accents are very hard to detect, and whose spoken English is almost perfectly idiomatic; though their writing is more revealing.

2. A few non-natives I know (mostly Middle Eastern) speak AmE. It's much harder for me to detect the non-native signals. Moral: if you want to persuade people you're genuinely British, go to live in America (or vice versa).

3. I agree about the effect of second language proficiency upon your first language. You start to translate idioms and turns of phrase directly back into your first language. Sometimes it's almost deliberate: if you have an Italian girlfriend, for instance, it can be pleasant to smuggle her idioms back into English; or even to adopt some of her English mistakes.

Also, your accent may be affected. I know a French chap who complains bitterly that in England he's treated as a Frenchman, and in France as a Englishman. Needless to say, he gets bad service in both countries.

4. The case of writers such as Nabokov and Conrad is relevant here. I would hold that it's still possible to detect the non-native note in both writers, because their language lacks the internal musical cohesion that we find even in poor native writers. Conrad for me always reads like a very skilled translation of Conrad, for instance. (But whether I would have thought so if I hadn't known he wasn't English, I don't know.)

MrP