Search results for 'tag:American English tag:Subjunctives' matching tags 'American English' and 'Subjunctives'

Re: is/was/were

Philip — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:59:11 GMT

Grammar Geek

Technically, you should not use "was" -- but you're going to hear that more and more as the subjunctive slowly disappears from American English.

We could set up "The Society For the Preservation Of the Use Of the Subjunctive In American English" [SPUSAE]. We could collect $2 annual dues. I'll volunteer to be treasurer for the first year. >>

Re: is/was/were

Grammar Geek — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:58:38 GMT

Use "is" if you think there really is a way, but you just don't know how to do it. "Is" is not contrary to fact.

Use "were" if you think there really is NOT a way to do this, and you know it to be contrary to fact. This is the subjunctive.

Technically, you should not use "was" -- but you're going to hear that more and more as the subjunctive slowly disappears from American English.

Re: Archaic Past Conditional?

CalifJim — Fri, 16 May 2008 04:17:17 GMT

badegine

'Behind the doors there were to be other chambers, possibly a succession of them, where we should find the coffin lying.'

It is a characteristic of British English, and of American English to a lesser extent, and especially in older forms of the language on both sides of the Atlantic, to substitute shall and should for will and would with a first-person subject.

Hence, this substitution in mind, the sentence is equivalent to the one which ends: where we would find the coffin lying.

It is therefore nothing more than the backshift of where we will find the coffin lying.

Just as will find is the future of the present, would find is the future of the past.

A paraphrase might be: where (eventually) we were going to find the coffin lying or where we were about to find the coffin lying.

I don't find anything remotely subjunctive or conditional in the sentence.

The future of the past is used frequently in narrations to alert the listener (reader) to events which happened after the time that is central to the point of view of the narrative as it has developed to one particular point in the narrative. The events which then were about to happen may or may not be referred to again later in the narrative. It seems to me that I hear this tense most often in documentaries -- but not with the old-fashioned substitution of should for would after I and we, of course.

Little did we know at the time that we would soon regret the decision we made. (Older form: that we should soon regret ...)

The political situation was bad, but in the next decade things would take a dramatic change for the better.

Several more disasters would befall our heroine before she finally triumphed.

PS. I don't see any anachronisms here either.

Re: Has/have

Kooyeen — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:24:19 GMT

Hi,
"have" is the "prescriptively correct" one, because it actually and grammatically refers to "languages".
Now, the fact is that a lot of native speakers use the singular in those kinds of structures, because they make the verb agree with what comes before "one of".

The advice is: use the plural when you feel you will be judged on strict grammar rules (= ESL Tests), otherwise use either one, depending on what you have in mind, what you are thinking of.

Venusian is one of the languages that don't have the subjunctive. --> You are thinking of the languages that don't have the subjunctive, and Venusian is one of them.
Venusian is one of the languages that doesn't have the subjunctive. --> You are thinking that Venusian doesn't have the subjunctive, along with other languages.

Oops, that's true for American English... I don't know if you are interested in BrE.

Re: worse/worst

Yoong Liat — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:33:19 GMT

Yankee wrote:
Just to add a little more confusion to this thread, I'd like to mention that I've also heard this idiom used with 'came' (i.e. in a sentence with the same format as a type 2 conditional). I've just never actually heard it used with the subjunctive 'come'.

Just to clear things up.
I don't understand why Kenneth G. Wilson wrote: 'if worst come to worst' as it is grammatically wrong.

Kenneth G. Wilson (1923â). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.

if (when) worse (worst) come(s) to worst

Re: worse/worst

Goodman — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:30:43 GMT

New2grammar wrote:

worse comes to [worse/worst]

Which of the choices is correct for the common phrase above?

Thanks in advance!

Hi New2grammar,

This should help you clear up any question you may have:

Kenneth G. Wilson (1923â). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.

if (when) worse (worst) come(s) to worst

These clichÃ©s are variations of the same locution (sometimes the article the is added before one or both of the worse/worsts), each meaning essentially âIf the worst that can happen actually does happenâ or âIf this already bad situation gets as bad as can be.â All these variations are idiomatic (even though if worst comes to worst is probably a distortion of if worse comes to worst), and all are Standard, whether the verb is indicative or subjunctive, as in If worse come[s] to worst.

Re: wish clauses

Goodman — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 17:52:34 GMT

Yoong Liat wrote:
Hi Goodman

You wrote: I have been labeled and called by many descriptions, hinted being âIgnorantâ is the first ...

I'm not hinting that you're ignorant. I say that if a learner tells me "informal" means "wrong", I'll understand that he says so because he is ignorant. But you are not a learner. You're one of the members who have a good command of English. So that's why I say it's not correct for you to say that a usage, which is classified as "informal", is wrong.

I've reproduced below what Michael Swan has to say about "I wish I was ... " and "I wish it wasn't ..." and let the members decide whether you're right to say "I wish it was not raining" or "I wish it wasn't raining" is a wrong usage.

We can use 'wish' to express regrets - to say that we would like things to be different. We use a past tense with a present meaning in this case.
I wish I was better-looking.
I wish it wasn't raining.

In a formal style, we can use 'were' instead of 'was' after 'I wish'.
I wish I were better-looking.

(Basic English Usage by Michael Swan)

Best wishes.

Liat,

With our differences in point of view, I appreciate your reply. For all intents and an purposes, I am still a learner on a different level but I perhaps have the advantage being in a completely English environment and therefore, I may appear to have better command. That said, I do feel there is a certain slight inconsistency among all the different English websites, particularly on the subjunctive. There should not be any argument that âIf I wereâ or âI wish I wereâ is a subjunctive mood. The difference of the agruement really lies in the defining of the rules and the mood expressed in the senstence. The early website quoted âI wish I wasâ as informal.

In reality, after reading this article, that is indeed incorrect. The bottom line, " I wish I was" is against the subjunctive ruels. Take a look at the explanation on this website then you may come to agree with what I said in my earlier threads.

Confusingly enough, in the "self test", some of of the answers are considered "acceptable" or "informal" by some. I should hope that this piece will settle all questions about indicative and subjunctive moods.

Subjunctive Mood

However, if a form of the verb to be were used in that sentence, all polished writers would agree that the subjunctive is necessary: "If he were [not was] ...
www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/073001.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar page



GIW Home		writeDate(); Mon Oct. 8, 2007 \| Tell a Friend \| Subscribe \| Order Our Book
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	Writing Tip: July 30, 2001 The Subjunctive Mood Examine the verbs in each of the following sentences: 1. If Harrison were chosen to be the next chief executive officer of the corporation, several controversial hiring practices would change. 2. If I were you, I would increase my weekly contribution to the company-sponsored retirement fund. 3. I wish that his report were longer. 4. We recommend that the trip be postponed because of violence in the region. 5. The finance department requests that he submit updated budget projections each month. All the above sentences are correct. Two terms apply to the mood of English verbs: indicative and subjunctive. An indicative verb makes a statement that is factual, whereas a verb in the subjunctive mood is used to indicate a situation or condition that is hypothetical, doubtful, or conditional. In the indicative mood, we would never write "Harrison were," "I were," "report were," "trip be," or "he submit," but these verbs are correct in the examples above because each of the sentences is written in the subjunctive mood; that is, in every case, the sentence is describing a situation that is hypothetical or conditional: 1. Harrison is not now the C.E.O., but hypothetically he could be chosen for that position. The conditional nature of the position is suggested by the word if. 2. Again, as the word if makes clear, I am not, in fact, you. So once again the situation is hypothetical and conditional: I would save more only under the condition that I became you. 3. His report is not, in fact, longer, so the sentence speaks of a hypothetical situation. 4. The trip is not currently postponed, so the subjunctive mood is appropriate to suggest a possibility, not an actuality. 5. He is not currently submitting reports monthly, so we use the subjunctive mood to discuss the possibility--not the actuality--of his doing so. For all verbs except to be, the present subjunctive mood is most often made by omitting the characteristic s ending on verbs with third-person singular subjects. Thus, whereas in the indicative mood we would write "man leaves," in the subjunctive mood we would omit the s on the verb leave: "The judge insisted that the man not leave town." For the verb to be, we simply use be for all present tense subjunctive mood verbs and were for all past tense forms, regardless of whether the subject is singular or plural. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English (New York: MJF Books, 1993) points out that while many subjunctive-mood phrases are commonly used in ordinary speech--"if I were you," "if need be," "far be it from me," and so on--strict use of the subjunctive mood is rare, even in the most formal speaking and writing situations (243). Very few people would write, for example, "If he arrive on time, we will have dinner before the show." However, if a form of the verb to be were used in that sentence, all polished writers would agree that the subjunctive is necessary: "If he were [not was] to arrive on time, we could have dinner before the show." The Harbrace College Handbook (13th edition) lists other common, fixed expressions that are stated in the subjunctive mood: "so be it," "be that as it may," "as it were," and "God bless you" (99-100). TEST YOURSELF Which of the following sentences need verbs in the subjunctive mood? 1. If I was Sam, I would hire an assistant now before the hiring freeze takes effect. 2. The committee suggested that Dr. Jones is chosen as the next chief of staff. 3. As August approaches, every school child wishes that his or her vacation was longer. 4. It is critical that every potential donor gives blood during this shortage. ANSWERS 1. If I WERE Sam, I would hire an assistant now before the hiring freeze takes effect. 2. The committee suggested that Dr. Jones BE chosen as the next chief of staff. 3. As August approaches, every school child wishes that his or her vacation WERE longer. This is almost the exact sentence identified as correct in your past post. 4. It is critical that every potential donor GIVE blood during this shortage. Copyright 2001 Get It Write More Tips \| Tell a Friend *Special Request:* Please share these tips with friends and colleagues and encourage them to subscribe. (If you post the tips to an internal distribution list of any size, please tell us the nature of the list and the number of subscribers. We would like to know how many people we are reaching with this service. We appreciate your positive feedback and excellent comments!)

Re: Is this "would" equal to "should"?

CalifJim — Sat, 12 May 2007 06:55:12 GMT

Welcome to English Forums!

You could also use the word "much". (If you used the word "much",) I wouldn't notice a difference in meaning.

The use of "would" almost invariably suggests a condition, whether the condition is stated explicitly or not.

The clause with "would" is the statement of the result. The clause introduced by "if" and containing a past tense is the statement of the condition. As seen above, the statement of the condition is not required. It can often be deduced from context, as I have done above (in parentheses). This particular grammatical formula, which relates a condition to a result of that condition, suggests -- as you may already have guessed -- not that the resulting situation actually exists in the real world, but that the resulting situation exists in a sort of alternate world in which the condition situation actually exists.
An extremely similar statement can be constructed with an "if" clause with the present tense and a "will" clause. If you use the word "much", I won't (will not) notice a difference in meaning. This differs from the equivalent with "would" only in the degree of definiteness. In the version with "will" we have the feeling that the condition may very well come about, and we will definitely proceed as the result clause predicts. In the version with "would" we are reasoning more abstractly. Whether or not the condition ever occurs in the real world is not so much of a concern; we are more interested in the abstract relationship between the condition and the result.

In short, you are very nearly correct in your characterization of "would" as a reserved form of "will". I prefer to say that in the case of "if" statements, "would" is a more abstract and less real form of "will".

I don't think we need to call "would" a subjunctive of any kind. That is not a good analysis in my opinion.
__________

In my opinion the replacement of "wouldn't" by "shouldn't" causes the statement to seem old-fashioned. Even though it is possible, this replacement is not used in modern English, certainly not in modern American English.

CJ

Re: at though she is / were

Goodman — Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:38:25 GMT

Yoong Liat wrote:

1. She walks as though she is drunk.

2. She walks as though she was drunk.

3. She walks as though she were drunk.

What is the difference between the three sentences? I believe #2 and #3 have the same meaning.

This website may be helpful in answering your questuions:

Learning English | BBC World Service

Like though, as though and as if are subordinating conjunctions. We use as if or as though when we want to give an explanation for something which may not ...
www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv136.shtml - 31k -

Kenneth G. Wilson (1923â). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.

as if, as though (conjs.)


These two are currently interchangeable in meaning in Standard English, and the verbs in the clauses they introduce may now be either indicative, as in He looked as if [as though] he was going to cry, or subjunctive, as in He looked as if [as though] he were going to cry, apparently without effect on level. See also LIKE (2).	1

Re: subjunctive past

Cool Breeze — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 15:15:00 GMT

Hi Inchoateknowledge

I can see that you are delving deeper and deeper into the unfathomable abysses of the English language.
Nos. 1, 2, 5 and 6 will probably be accepted by all, at least all those who are versed in the differences between British and American English.

No. 3 will be frowned upon by some and No. 4 is wrong and the result of hypercorrectness. No past subjunctive is required here.

No. 7 is plainly wrong.

Cheers
CB



GIW Home		writeDate(); Mon Oct. 8, 2007 \| Tell a Friend \| Subscribe \| Order Our Book
		Resources: Writing Tips \| More Tips
	Writing Tip: July 30, 2001 The Subjunctive Mood Examine the verbs in each of the following sentences: 1. If Harrison were chosen to be the next chief executive officer of the corporation, several controversial hiring practices would change. 2. If I were you, I would increase my weekly contribution to the company-sponsored retirement fund. 3. I wish that his report were longer. 4. We recommend that the trip be postponed because of violence in the region. 5. The finance department requests that he submit updated budget projections each month. All the above sentences are correct. Two terms apply to the mood of English verbs: indicative and subjunctive. An indicative verb makes a statement that is factual, whereas a verb in the subjunctive mood is used to indicate a situation or condition that is hypothetical, doubtful, or conditional. In the indicative mood, we would never write "Harrison were," "I were," "report were," "trip be," or "he submit," but these verbs are correct in the examples above because each of the sentences is written in the subjunctive mood; that is, in every case, the sentence is describing a situation that is hypothetical or conditional: 1. Harrison is not now the C.E.O., but hypothetically he could be chosen for that position. The conditional nature of the position is suggested by the word if. 2. Again, as the word if makes clear, I am not, in fact, you. So once again the situation is hypothetical and conditional: I would save more only under the condition that I became you. 3. His report is not, in fact, longer, so the sentence speaks of a hypothetical situation. 4. The trip is not currently postponed, so the subjunctive mood is appropriate to suggest a possibility, not an actuality. 5. He is not currently submitting reports monthly, so we use the subjunctive mood to discuss the possibility--not the actuality--of his doing so. For all verbs except to be, the present subjunctive mood is most often made by omitting the characteristic s ending on verbs with third-person singular subjects. Thus, whereas in the indicative mood we would write "man leaves," in the subjunctive mood we would omit the s on the verb leave: "The judge insisted that the man not leave town." For the verb to be, we simply use be for all present tense subjunctive mood verbs and were for all past tense forms, regardless of whether the subject is singular or plural. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English (New York: MJF Books, 1993) points out that while many subjunctive-mood phrases are commonly used in ordinary speech--"if I were you," "if need be," "far be it from me," and so on--strict use of the subjunctive mood is rare, even in the most formal speaking and writing situations (243). Very few people would write, for example, "If he arrive on time, we will have dinner before the show." However, if a form of the verb to be were used in that sentence, all polished writers would agree that the subjunctive is necessary: "If he were [not was] to arrive on time, we could have dinner before the show." The Harbrace College Handbook (13th edition) lists other common, fixed expressions that are stated in the subjunctive mood: "so be it," "be that as it may," "as it were," and "God bless you" (99-100). TEST YOURSELF Which of the following sentences need verbs in the subjunctive mood? 1. If I was Sam, I would hire an assistant now before the hiring freeze takes effect. 2. The committee suggested that Dr. Jones is chosen as the next chief of staff. 3. As August approaches, every school child wishes that his or her vacation was longer. 4. It is critical that every potential donor gives blood during this shortage. ANSWERS 1. If I WERE Sam, I would hire an assistant now before the hiring freeze takes effect. 2. The committee suggested that Dr. Jones BE chosen as the next chief of staff. 3. As August approaches, every school child wishes that his or her vacation WERE longer. This is almost the exact sentence identified as correct in your past post. 4. It is critical that every potential donor GIVE blood during this shortage. Copyright 2001 Get It Write More Tips \| Tell a Friend *Special Request:* Please share these tips with friends and colleagues and encourage them to subscribe. (If you post the tips to an internal distribution list of any size, please tell us the nature of the list and the number of subscribers. We would like to know how many people we are reaching with this service. We appreciate your positive feedback and excellent comments!)