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Re: Armenian Genocide

YoungCalifornian — Thu, 15 Jun 2006 01:07:06 GMT

You again misunderstood me. But I think this confusion stems from understaning of the term politics. I tried to say even such an organization which doesnt have to do anything regarding to this case (an historical event) can make decisions because of the diaspora.As for Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights it is obviously a problematic commision and there are several criticism about the decisions of them .some of them from wikipedi

The Commission has been repeatedly criticized for the composition of its membership. In particular, several of its member countries themselves have dubious human rights records, including states whose representatives have been elected to chair the commission.

Another criticism is that the Commission has not been used for constructive discussion of human rights issues, but as a forum for politically selective finger-pointing and criticism. The desire of states with problematic human rights records to be elected to the Commission is largely to defend themselves from such attacks.

And even if you reach wikipedi you will see that this commision was even unable to reach an agreement about the adverse treatment in AbuGharib, which was proved and obvious to the world by photos and videos.

Again, I'm not trying to argue that any one person, organization, or other source of information is going to be 100% objective. It's simply impossible. However, despite that fact, some sources are still more reputable than others. The Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights may not be perfect, but it's a much more reliable source than any I've seen you provide. I also notice that of all the criticisms you've presented, none center around the truthfulness of any claims the sub-commission has made.

Did i say i am not biased? Quite the contrary. But i am trying to find the true way.

Who brought up this whole UNESCO discussion? Oh dont say this.It was you who had brought several so-called objective sources. I only responded to show you there cannot be any objectivity in such a historical matter. Get it?

And you compared it with *** while we should have been discussing if it was a gencoide or not in terms of the initial aim of Turks. And worst than all, it is a very common and rotten method which is used by everyone to elicit pity in people,that is to say comparing whatever at hand with Nazi torture.And about torture against armenians you also started it by sending a source contains photos but i didnt want to respond it by sources that show massacred Turks because i think it is not what we should discuss here and nor does it help us to come to an agreement. I dont think it is good way for an efficient discussion to show photos in order to elicit pity in people.Now is it me who is off topic?

You may not have said that you are unbiased, but your attitude and comments directed towards me have implied as much. You've accused me of bias because one of the names I provided as an example of a very (not entirely, but very) impartial organization which accepts the Armenian Genocide as fact has received some criticism in the past. Well, more accurately, you attack the organization because one of its sister organizations was criticized for censorship. You then go on and act as if pointing out that the fact that any organization is liable to have some bias is some sort of great point. If that's the case, why believe anything anyone says? Afterall, we're all biased. If that's the crux of your argument I think you should rethink your position, because I can make the same point regarding any sources you provide. Besides, that was only one of the names I listed.

I'm trying to reach people in this discussion on an analytical level, not an emotional one. Still, if some of the arguments I've made tug at people's heart strings, I'm not going to apologize for that. It's a very sad event in human history. I think I've made it clear why I chose to link some photos and make the comparison to the Holocaust, and neither were to elicit sympathy. I chose to link the photos so people could see that there is indeed photographic evidence of the genocide (those photos were not taken by Armenians, by the way). I explained the parallels to the Holocaust in my last post which addressed your claim that I was only making the comparison to elicit sympathy. Even you should be able to admit that if one accepts the truth of the Armenian Genocide, the parallels to the Holocaust are uncanny. Since you seem to be a fan of Wikipedia (which is, admittedly, not a great source), I thought I've provide this well-stated excerpt from the discussion of the "Armenian Genocide" entry:

What can be termed âhostile and incivil [sicâ¦uncivil]â in this case are the attempts of genocide denialists, historical revisionist and obviously insufficiently educated commentators and fiction writers such as yourself and others here to obscure and rewrite history in an attempt to shield historical criminals of some of the most serious crimes against humanity that have ever occurred in history. In doing so you perpetuate the genocide of an innocent population of Armenians whose survivors suffer through the mental anguish not only of the loss of their relatives and kin and the destruction of their nation â but by the insult and defamation caused by the continued active and ugly denial of the truth of what occurred. This is not â as you attempt to portray it â the âArmenian version of the storyâ â it is a depiction of the history as was documented and corroborated by numerous eyewitnesses and is accepted by the vast majority of scholars, historians, Encyclopedic and history book entries â and it in fact is the truth â as known at the time it occurred and as is known today. It is not the âArmenian versionâ â your contention that it is such is completely false. It is the denial of the true history that is a POV version. No one is required to ârespectâ or acknowledge the denial of the Holocaust except in acknowledging what it is â an ugly twisting of the truth to support a particular racist and hateful viewpoint â and there is absolutely no difference between Holocaust denial and denial of the Armenian Genocide accept for the fact that Armenian Genocide denial is a view that is actively officially held by and sponsored by a nation state. Otherwise each every and all aspects of these denials are the same! If eyewitnesses described camps as concentration camps â by exact word or by description of the activities held in and around them â or more appropriately âdeath campsâ for some â then it matters not if the Turkish government has chosen to call them âway stationsâ or âbeach front villasâ. While we may never be able to know the exact number of Armenians killed or murdered â as we will never know the exact numbers of Jews (and this has been disputed in the very same manner and for the very same reasons as the Turkish deniers dispute the Armenian figures) etc â this does not invalidate the fact that certain figures are (and have always been) accepted as reasonable approximations and that the resulting disparity of Armenian population within Anatolia before and after this time is relatively unchanged in its relationship. Thus disputing the exact numbers in know way obviates the genocide claim and again there is no real controversy of any bearing as what the Turkish Government or their paid/sponsored/held hostage supporters might claim has no validity as the position itself (that genocide did not happen or that no significant numbers of Armenians beyond the norm for the time died and/or that there was no specific campaign against themâ¦etc) is already discredited and obviously spurious and in fact there is no valid dispute of the relative loss of the Armenian population, how and why it occurred and that it was with certainly and absolutely a state sponsored genocide. As for genocide âartâ or what-have-youâ¦this might be the only place were we even remotely agree. I think it is relevant and should be referenced â however considering the article lacks all of the sufficient descriptive elements of the how, why, where, when and by who and to who information that I think is relevant and necessary â I would argue that there is undue emphasis on clearly secondary issues as âartâ etc. However, Pamukâs case IMO â needs to be expanded onâ¦not his specific case â but the systematic campaign of genocide denial by the Turkish government â through laws and prosecutions, destruction of cultural monuments, changing of place names and even names of plants and animals, and of course active international sponsorship of genocide denial â through paid academic sponsorship and restrictions on independence of researchers positions, to pressures upon and threats against governments, corporations and individuals. --THOTH 17:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, I'm not the only one who sees the parallel between the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust. In fact, the same discussion page has a whole section titled "Those who deny the Holocaust use the same rational and arguments as Turks who deny the Armenian Genocide"!

From the very beginning, I have told you it doesnt make any sense to me to say if something is commonly believed it is true. Actually, quite the contrary in such a world that is swayed into a direction by power holds and diasporas and so on.Look what I have found.

I do not deny that just because a belief is widespread, that doesn't necessarily make it true. Still, when the majority of academics studying an issue reach the same conclusion, that has to be given some weight. You can't brush aside every point I make by saying everyone is biased, and just because most experts agree, that doesn't make it true. How is anything to be believed then?

I think that the example you've provided of historic propoganda is an ironic one. The author of that passage intends the Indians to be analogous to the Turks, but I think that the situation of the Indians more clearly mirrors that of the Armenians in Turkey. The difference there is that after years of oppressing Native American peoples, the American government and people eventually began to question their perceptions and re-examine history. In the Western world, there is a tradition of questioning events of the past and recognizing that one's own side is not always the right one. Turkey, in contrast, would seem to have no such tradition. Apart from the fact that your government will prosecute people for questioning Turkish history (as evidenced by Orhan Pamuk's situation), the fact that you've been unwilling to say one negative thing about Turkish history (even debating the fact that the Turks pillaged Constantinople) throughout this debate suggests as much.

Also, I hope you don't seriously believe that the website you've provided is an accurate source of information.

Lastly, I leave you with some another excerpt from that same Wikipedia discussion. This one is actually an excerpt of an excerpt:

In Istanbul, a Crack In the Wall of Denial - We're Trying to Debate the Armenian Issue

By Elif Shafak - Sunday, September 25, 2005; ISTANBUL

I am the daughter of a Turkish diplomat -- a rather unusual character in the male-dominated foreign service in that she was a single mother. ... throughout my childhood, the word "Armenian" meant only one thing to me: a terrorist who wanted to kill my mother. Faced with hatred, I hated back. But that was as far as my feelings went. It took me years to ask the simple question: Why did the Armenians hate us? My ignorance was not unusual. For me in those days, and for most Turkish citizens even today, my country's history began in 1923, with the founding of the modern Turkish state. The roots of the Armenians' rage -- in the massacres, atrocities and deportations that decimated Turkey's Armenian population in the last years of Ottoman rule, particularly 1915 -- were simply not part of our common historical memory. But for me today, and for a growing number of my fellow Turks, that has changed. Until my early twenties, like many Turks living abroad, I was less interested in history than in what we described as "improving Turkey's image in the eyes of Westerners." As I began reading extensively on political and social history, I was drawn to the stories of minorities, of the marginalized and the silenced Yet it was not until I came to the United States in 2002 and started getting involved in an Armenian-Turkish intellectuals' network that I seriously felt the need to face the charges that, beginning in 1915, Turks killed as many as 1.5 million Armenians and drove hundreds of thousands more from their homes. I focused on the literature of genocide, particularly the testimony of survivors; I watched filmed interviews at the Zoryan Institute's Armenian archives in Toronto; I talked to Armenian grandmothers, participated in workshops for reconciliation and collected stories from Armenian friends who were generous enough to entrust me with their family memories and secrets. With each step, I realized not only that atrocities had been committed in that terrible time but that their effect had been made far worse by the systematic denial that followed. I came to recognize a people's grief and to believe in the need to mourn our past together. I also got to know other Turks who were making a similar intellectual journey. Obviously there is still a powerful segment of Turkish society that completely rejects the charge that Armenians were purposely exterminated. Some even go so far as to claim that it was Armenians who killed Turks, and so there is nothing to apologize for. These nationalist hardliners include many of our government officials, bureaucrats, diplomats and newspaper columnists. They dominate Turkey's public image -- but theirs is only one position held by Turkish citizens, and it is not even the most common one. The prevailing attitude of ordinary people toward the "Armenian question" is not one of conscious denial; rather it is collective ignorance. These Turks feel little need to question the past as long as it does not affect their daily lives. There is a third attitude, prevalent among Turkish youth: Whatever happened, it was a long time ago, and we should concentrate on the future rather than the past. "Why am I being held responsible for a crime my grandfather committed -- that is, if he ever did it?" they ask. Meanwhile, the Armenian question has been prominently featured in Turkish media. Hurriyet, the nation's most popular newspaper, ran a series of pro and con interviews on this formerly taboo subject, called "The Armenian Dossier." The upcoming trial of acclaimed author Orhan Pamuk, charged with "denigrating" Turkish identity for talking about the killing of Kurds and Armenians, has been fervently debated. Various columnists have directly apologized to the Armenians for the sufferings caused to their people by the Turks. And stories have been reported of orphaned Armenian girls who saved their lives by changing their names, converting to Islam and marrying Turks -- and whose grandchildren are unaware today of their own mixed heritage. All this activity has triggered a nationalist backlash. That should be expected...Foreign Minister Gul,in New York, lamented what effect this would have on Turkey's quest to join the European Union: "There's no one better at hurting themselves than us," he said.Through the collective efforts of academics, journalists, writers and media correspondents, 1915 is being opened to discussion in my homeland as never before. The process is not an easy one and will disturb many vested interests. I know how hard it is -- most children from diplomatic families, confronting negative images of Turkey abroad, develop a sort of defensive nationalism, and it's especially true among those of us who lived through the years of Armenian terrorism. But I also know that the journey from denial to recognition is one that can be made.

Here's a link to the discussion, by the way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Armenian_Genocide

My first short story at here

xEnOn — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:48:25 GMT

Here's a short story I had written. I hope to get as many critiques as possible. And please let me know any mistakes I had made and any structuring of the language that sounds awkward.
If you happened to notice a series of similar mistakes which I tend to make very often, please correct me as well. Thanks

My First Girl
âHello, is this Ken?â a lady on the phone asked.

âYes, I am,â I replied.

âKen, we have accepted your interview and you can start working right away.â

I was delighted when I heard this as I finally got a job after 2 weeks of job hunting. Although, it was just a part-time sales assistant, it was good enough for a student who had just finished his general examination to earn some cash.

I quickly went to the bathroom and got myself washed. I went through my wardrobe and only picked out a jean that I thought was compatible later as I knew I would be asked to change into their uniform t-shirt that has logo of their company printed on it. I combed my hair and made sure I did not style my hair as spiky as usual, hoping to give a good first impression. I then wore my leather shoes and rushed out of my house to that departmental store for my first day work.

When I was there, I was quite confused as I did not know where to report. The other crews were all busy entertaining the customers or the goods. I just kept looking around as if I am one of the customers since I am still not wearing the uniform. I was hoping to see if I could seek help from any of the staffs who were free. When I walked pass the baby section, I saw a very angelic lady playing with her cell phone. She was slight and her glowing skins looked fair and smooth. This skin that wrapped her long legs were even alluring. What was even better was she is wearing the departmental storeâs uniform! âIs she a contemporary of mine?â I thought. I gathered my courage and went forward to her.

âHow can I help you, sir?â she asked in her sweetest voice.

âErrâ¦this is my first day working and can I know who do I report to?â

âFollow me,â she said as she slides her mobile into the pocket on her mini-skirt.

She brought me to a room and she returned to where she had left. I turned my head to glance at her the last time before I knocked on the door and stepped into the room. It was the manager there in his office.

âGood morning, sir. I am Kenâ I greeted.

âGlad to see you joining us,â sliding open one of his drawers and took out a nicely folded uniform. âHereâs your uniform. Change into it and I will show you where you will be working.â

After changing into the uniform, the manager showed me around the departmental storeâs different sections and told me about my job. When finally we were back to the babyâs section, he said, âThis will be where you will be in-charge of and Emily will be your partner. Both of you will take charge of folding up and arranging the babies clothes here and to assist any inquires from the customers.â He went back to his office after telling this.

âOh yes!â for a moment I thought. I am elated that I could have such a beautiful lady as my partner. I thought it was my chance. However, I also anguished that I might embarrass myself in any ways under the pressure of a provocative woman. But I knew no matter what, I still had to work with her to earn my cash.

I turned my head and looked at her. She was folding the shirts on the shelf with her fine and elegant fingers that had messed up by the customers. I went near her, hoping to help her to fold the other clothes. When I was just beside her, the scent of her feminine intrigued my nose and made me even nervous. I closed my eyes for a moment to subdue my nervousness and started to fold the rest of the clothes with her.

âHi, I am Ken,â I introduced myself.

She did not reply me immediately and this made me thought I was talking to the wall. I felt quite embarrassed a little initially until she said, âI am Emily, and you know my name. The manager just said it.â

Beautiful girls are all of the same; haughty, I consoled myself. Just before she got less attractive to me, she suddenly came nearer to me and said, âYou shouldnât fold the clothes this way. Let me show you how.â This was the longest time I ever heard her sweet voice serenading so far. I stared at her fine, long fingers, folding the clothes in the most elegant manner rather than how the clothes should be folded. All these almost melted my heart. After that, she taught me the way the toys should be displayed in the window cupboard and the way to entertain customers. As we got closer, we began to talk more easily. When there were no customers around, we chatted continuously. We had pleasantries from our studies to our lives in school, from our friends to our family members and even shared our own spooky personal experiences and to funny ones. I will always laugh when I saw her laughing. Sometimes, when our laughter was too loud, our manager reprimanded us. But after he had left, we continued and often started cursing him first before going onto to others. We have never had insufficient topics to chat on. I also got to know that she was at the same age of mine, seventeen years old, and had also just finished her general examination. She also hated guys who flirt. This was the reason why she spoke to me so unwillingly at first as she thought I am one of those kinds.

This went on everyday when we were at work. Our relationship became closer. We will have all our meals together before and after work. During work, she will continue to guide me like my virtuous mother. Sometimes, I would purposely do something wrong for her to get closer to me to correct me.

During on of our conversations, she told me that her computer had broken down and she had been very boring at home. I could not bear to see her feeling bored at home and volunteered to help her to fix her computer although I was afraid it was beyond my knowledge of computer. That evening after we were over our working hours, we went straight to her house after having our dinner together.

I was quite awkward when I was at her house because this was the first time I ever stepped into house of a female friend. I followed her to her room and switched her computer on.

âLook at my Internet Explorer,â she said as she closed the door of her room. âThere are pop ups all over and there is also a toolbar which I donât even know when I installed it. Worst still, I could not go into the Internet after these things affected my computer!â

âAd-wares I guess. These damn wares always cause troubles to our computers.â I said, hoping that my guess was not wrong to avoid any embarrassment.

I diagnosed her computer a while and realised that it were the ad-wares that had messed the IP address stack of her computer. It took me about an hour to remove the ad-wares and reestablish the Internet connection. By then, she had already fallen asleep on her bed. The splendours of the way she slept were really adorable. I could not help but stared at her for a few minutes before I told her that her computer was repaired. I shook her slightly to wake her up. She slowly pulled opened her eye lit.

âYour computer is now okay.â

âReally?â she raised her voice a little as she got off her bed to her computer chair.

The first thing she did was she ran Gunbound, an online shooting game, and asked me to play with her. I ever heard of the game but I never really knew how to play. To avoid being anti-climax, I agreed. When the game started, I stood beside her chair and hold the mouse to aim. I could not really aim well and Emily kept laughing wryly on her chair. During the next game, she held my hand on the mouse and guided me to aim our enemies in the game. I felt so warm under her hands. The warmth was like conducting from her palms to my hands. The feeling was terrific. We were laughing and having lots of fun as she guided me just like how she did to me at the departmental store. As we got more excited, we accidentally knocked our heads into each otherâs. We turned our heads and looked at each other and she was still laughing. I could not stand that cuteness and pushed my head forward and caressed her lips lightly. Her laughter immediately subdued. Her face turned crimson and her eyes were looking at the ground, avoiding mine. I slowly moved my lips closer to hers again, gently touch her lips with mine and soon, she began to response. I put both my arms around her neck and she put hers around my waist as we both stood up. Our tongues were tightly locked and we both fell onto the bed with our lips still together. We kissed even harder, so hard that she was rubbing her feet very vigorously. The feeling was fantastic. I could not resist myself. I had never felt such an intimacy before. The feeling of fondness, the feeling of love.

Just before a minute is up, Emilyâs mother knocked on the door and turned open the brass doorknob. Emily and I immediately jump out off her bed and she brushed her tresses to the back.

âHere are drinks for your friend and you,â her mother said as she placed the two cups of drink on the table and left.

Now, we were left alone on the room again. However, this time round, we were all blushed. Our eyes dare not face each otherâs but we all knew in our hearts that we started to like one another. We were just waiting for one another to declare our love and to accept it. Unfortunately, pride was the weapon that ruined my chance.

âItâs late andâ¦and I guess I should take my leave,â I said.

When I was in the lift of her flat, I regretted for having too much pride. I should have said I loved her and things would not be that difficult anymore. I cursed myself and kicked the wall of the lift so hard that the lift shook for a while and I thought the lights might went off the next second.

I did not see her at work the next day. The manager told me she took a day leave and I will have to work alone that day. My mood was down the whole day. No more fine hands guiding me to fold the clothes and arrange the toys. No more sweet voice serenading around my ears. Most importantly, no more that unique and sweet feminine scent flowing past my nose. My whole mind was all about Emily. So, I pretended to be ill and requested the manager for a half-day leave.

Since my mind is all about her, I decided to take a trip to her house. I called her mobile when I was in the bus on my way but it was switched off. I called her house but nobody picked up. This farther worried me. When I was at the void deck of her flat, I called her mobile again but it was still switched off. I had got no idea where to look for her. I just ran around her estate area with my mobile in my hand kept dialing her number. After a while, I saw a solitary back of a figure swinging gently on the swing on a childrenâs playground a few metres away. I slowly walked towards the playground; it was Emily! When I was standing at her back, she had stopped swinging. I brushed her hair at her side to the back of her ear. She turned around and stood up when she saw it was me.

âHiâ¦why are you here?â she asked and smiled aberrantly.

âI was worry about you.â

She smiled again and looked at the dark clouds that shrouded the sun.

I then put my hands on her shoulder and took a deep breath and said, âEmily, Iâ¦ I love you!â

Just then, the sky started to pour heavily abruptly.

âCan you be my girlfriend?â

She then hugged me and rested her cheek on my shoulder. I could felt that intimacy again and we both hugged tightly under the rain.

âWill you be good to me?â

âI promise you will be my first and only girl throughout the rest of my life,â brushing her wet hair down through my fingers.

She hugged me even tightly.

âI am all yours now,â she whispered at my ear, and caressed my neck.

I felt as if I was in the seventh heaven when I heard that and smiled from ear to ear.