Search results for 'tag:Clauses tag:Past perfect' matching tags 'Clauses' and 'Past perfect'

Re: "If I were" in past

Huevos — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:59:48 GMT

nene4english
Do you mean this sentence correct is correct if the conclusion is also in the past?

It's just a standard type 3 conditional. This expresses a hypothesis on what would have happened if the "if" clause, which is no longer possible to fulfil, had been fulfilled. It is formed as follows: if + pronoun + past perfect clause + pronoun + would + perfect infinitive clause.

Re: tense check

Clive — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 01:29:55 GMT

Hi again,

Thank you so much again.

Here,

Your correction:

"If John comes home about an hour later, he will be looking for me to play chess with him and when he finds out I am not there, he will be disappointed," I think. Do you have a question about this? Yes,but does it have to be "will"? I thinK we can say, "I would be playing chess when he comes home," giving the element of conditional that the modal "would" imparts. On the second thought, it would go against the no. 1 conditional structure and that wouldn't be good, IMO. Then, again, what can I do to send a message of uncertainly by the use of a verb form, still keeping the word "will"? How about saying something like "I think maybe I will . . . '?

Always have to be this?

When Joe comes home an hour later, he will (probably) - not would?? - be waiting for me at the bus stop with an umbrella so I won't get wet.
Will -not would??- Joe wait for me with an umbrella when I arrived at the bus stop an hour later?
What will - not would??- Joe do when Jane comes back is beyond me.
Will - not would?? - he be going out with Jane if she asks him out?

Always have to be a "definite" "will"? How can I impart a conditional element (if it is possible) with a touch of hesitation to a sentence that has "will"?

If you say something like What will - not would??- Joe do when Jane comes back is beyond me, you are mixing conditional factual elements. Instead, you need to say one or other of the following.

What Joe will do when Jane comes back is beyond me.

What Joe would do if Jane comes back is beyond me.

2. My position: I don't think we need to use a past perfect in the if-clause; of course, it would be needed if I were to put the if part in the past and that would put the sequence very clear but this would work fine too, IMO. At best, it would leave readers to figure out the sequence by themselves or at worst, it would be considered wrong:

If I went shopping when Joe called, I would be in the chic district of Seoul, window-shopping for all those fabulous lastest-trend clothes.

If I went shopping when Joe called . . this sounds like scenario in which you went shopping after he called. Yes, I think this situation would create that doubt on the part of a reader, but can you think of a sitution or two where it is OK, although not preferable, not to make it a past perfect but leave it as a past and leave to the readers to figure out the sequence involved? Not offhand, although I'm sure there are some. But why do you want to make the readers do the work?

Best wishes, Clive

Re: tense check

Anonymous — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:49:45 GMT

Thank you so much again.

Here,

Your correction:

"If John comes home about an hour later, he will be looking for me to play chess with him and when he finds out I am not there, he will be disappointed," I think. Do you have a question about this? Yes,but does it have to be "will"? I thinK we can say, "I would be playing chess when he comes home," giving the element of conditional that the modal "would" imparts. On the second thought, it would go against the no. 1 conditional structure and that wouldn't be good, IMO. Then, again, what can I do to send a message of uncertainly by the use of a verb form, still keeping the word "will"?

Always have to be this?

When Joe comes home an hour later, he will (probably) - not would?? - be waiting for me at the bus stop with an umbrella so I won't get wet.
Will -not would??- Joe wait for me with an umbrella when I arrived at the bus stop an hour later?
What will - not would??- Joe do when Jane comes back is beyond me.
Will - not would?? - he be going out with Jane if she asks him out?

Always have to be a "definite" "will"? How can I impart a conditional element (if it is possible) with a touch of hesitation to a sentence that has "will"?

2. My position: I don't think we need to use a past perfect in the if-clause; of course, it would be needed if I were to put the if part in the past and that would put the sequence very clear but this would work fine too, IMO. At best, it would leave readers to figure out the sequence by themselves or at worst, it would be considered wrong:

If I went shopping when Joe called, I would be in the chic district of Seoul, window-shopping for all those fabulous lastest-trend clothes.

If I went shopping when Joe called . . this sounds like scenario in which you went shopping after he called. Yes, I think this situation would create that doubt on the part of a reader, but can you think of a sitution or two where it is OK, although not preferable, not to make it a past perfect but leave it as a past and leave to the readers to figure out the sequence involved?

Re: tense check

Clive — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:59:32 GMT

Hi,
I had a little trouble understanding your questions in this post, I'm afraid.

It sometimes confused me whether I should use a past perfect or not in these situations>

Your correction:

I am sitting at a corner table in a restaurant. It is raining, and I am wondering what might have happened if I had done this or that or hadn't done this or that. If I had gone shopping when Joe called, I would be ( I assume you mean right now, although I'm not sure) in the chic district of Seoul, window-shopping for all those fabulous latest-trend clothes.

Copying the above again trying to point out parts that needed more explanations:

I am sitting at a corner table in a restaurant. It is raining, and I am wondering what might have happened if I had done this or that or hadn't done this or that. 1) If I had gone shopping when Joe called, I would be ( I assume you mean right now, although I'm not sure) in the chic district of Seoul, window-shopping for all those fabulous latest-trend clothes.

1. My question: If we want to mention some action/event that will occur in the future, does the tense has to be "will," not conditional "would"? I now think it has to be "will", then how can we put an element of conditional into the clause parts?

When you say 'when Joe called', you are indicating that you are talking about the past, so I don't understand why you now want to talk about the future.

Anyway, do you mean you want to say something like this? If Joe calls, I will be in the chic district of Seoul.

Your correction:

"If John comes home about an hour later, he will be looking for me to play chess with him and when he finds out I am not there, he will be disappointed," I think. Do you have a question about this?

2. My position: I don't think we need to use a past perfect in the if-clause; of course, it would be needed if I were to put the if part in the past and that would put the sequence very clear but this would work fine too, IMO. At best, it would leave readers to figure out the sequence by themselves or at worst, it would be considered wrong:

If I went shopping when Joe called, I would be in the chic district of Seoul, window-shopping for all those fabulous lastest-trend clothes.

If I went shopping when Joe called . . this sounds like scenario in which you went shopping after he called.

If I had gone shopping when Joe called this sounds like a scenario in which you went shopping before he called.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: tense check

Anonymous — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:51:57 GMT

Thank you.

It sometimes confused me whether I should use a past perfect or not in these situations>

Your correction:

I am sitting at a corner table in a restaurant. It is raining, and I am wondering what might have happened if I had done this or that or hadn't done this or that. If I had gone shopping when Joe called, I would be ( I assume you mean right now, although I'm not sure) in the chic district of Seoul, window-shopping for all those fabulous latest-trend clothes.

Copying the above again trying to point out parts that needed more explanations:

I am sitting at a corner table in a restaurant. It is raining, and I am wondering what might have happened if I had done this or that or hadn't done this or that. 1) If I had gone shopping when Joe called, I would be ( I assume you mean right now, although I'm not sure) in the chic district of Seoul, window-shopping for all those fabulous latest-trend clothes.

1. My question: If we want to mention some action/event that will occur in the future, does the tense has to be "will," not conditional "would"? I now think it has to be "will", then how can we put an element of conditional into the clause parts?

Your correction:

"If John comes home about an hour later, he will be looking for me to play chess with him and when he finds out I am not there, he will be disappointed," I think.

2. My position: I don't think we need to use a past perfect in the if-clause; of course, it would be needed if I were to put the if part in the past and that would put the sequence very clear but this would work fine too, IMO. At best, it would leave readers to figure out the sequence by themselves or at worst, it would be considered wrong:

If I went shopping when Joe called, I would be in the chic district of Seoul, window-shopping for all those fabulous lastest-trend clothes.

Re: tense dilemma

Anonymous — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 03:31:35 GMT

Can someone explain these to me these please.

Can you tell me how this works?

1)It was hard. It was during a tough time I was dropped (dropped -- better?) out of college due to the pressure. I may have been too young. 1) We had moved our house. It was difficult. 2) I had married by then, and I was pregnant. I married a guy I knew for some time. He was funny. He worked for two years and changed the job.

By the time, no. 2 came about, I lost trek. I think I went back one with no. 1's past perfect, then stayed there with no. 2 with its past perfect and the words 'by then'. Then where did I come out with the sentences after no. 2? The same past like before no. 1 and 2 or doesn't matter? past is past, a story goes on??

2)He remarked that it must have seemed as if her promise would fail, or that her words came from a need, not from her heart.
Does this 'would fail' contain a sense of past conditional?

I think Mr. M said that 'would fail' is no.2 conditional; then again, I heard someone else say in this forum that a person should not use 'would' in the if-clause (I would consider 'if' and 'as if' to be synonomous). Did Mr. M say that 'would fail' in the if-clause is in the present and the whole sentence is no. 2 conditional? I thought a no. 2 conditional had a past tense in the if-clause?

Quick Reply

Re: Conditional or not?

Huevos — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:00:24 GMT

Hello Anonymous,

Avoid using the word "would" in the "if" clause of your conditional sentences. Use the present (type 1), simple past (type 2) or past perfect (type 3).

Re: If I had listened to you

Huevos — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:57:21 GMT

New2grammar
Oh no. I didn't buy a lottery ticket (?? This means any ticket of any lottery. How to be specific to the lottery his friend advised)

You could say "Oh no. I didn't buy that lottery ticket".

New2grammar
Why is there a condition? "supposing that the numbers had been selected before the draw"

The winning number was drawn, say, yesterday, and matched the number his friend advised him to buy

The condition is that the if clause may be fulfilled. In your sentences it is already impossible to fulfil the if clause making the sentences purely hypothesis. This is known as a type III conditional and is formed thus: if + past perfect + would + have + past participle. A conditional formed with if + simple past is known as a type II conditional and is used where it is still possible to fulfil the if clause however unlikely that may be.

I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 06:50:46 GMT

I'd appreciate it if someone would answer my questions. Thanks in advance.

Concerning the sentence: I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been still alive. (Sorry no context)

In the "that clause, Past Perfect is used both in the main clause and the subordinate clause.

What I want to ask is the following 2.

Where is the reference point, the time I regretted or the time she died?

I think "were still alive" is better than had been still alive. What do you think?

Re: tense - why wrong?

CalifJim — Thu, 29 May 2008 22:41:04 GMT

Anonymous
How about this: "The World Court today threw out the conviction of a minor and ordered his immediate release. The High Court had on July 1, 2003, found the boy, then aged 12, guilty of murdering the 11-year-old girl at her house in Sentul, Kuala Lumpur, by stabbing her 20 times with a sharp object on May 30, 2002"

Perfectly grammatical. As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, the past perfect is the tense for cases when the events are not being told in the order in which they occurred.

Actual order of events: The High Court found the boy guilty. (Later,) the World Court threw out the conviction.

Told in reverse order:

The World Court today threw out the conviction of a 12-year-old boy. The High Court had found the boy guilty on July 1, 2003.

That the exact date is mentioned in the same clause as the past perfect tense is irrelevant. It's "before today". That's all that counts.

The restriction to cases where an exact time is not mentioned applies to the present perfect, not to the past perfect. For example, the following is incorrect:

*The High Court has found the boy guilty on July 1, 2003.