Search results for 'tag:Countable nouns tag:Genitives' matching tags 'Countable nouns' and 'Genitives'

Re: evening (without preposition) / to start to doing

Cool Breeze — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:51:01 GMT

CalifJim wrote:

Light from several lanterns filled the room with a soft glow.
Laughter of children was heard on the playground.

Hmm. Do these have to be The light ... and The laughter ... ?

I certainly don't want to criticize Steinbeck's English at all. I dealt with the of-genitive in my previous post and there isn't one in your first sentence, so I'll say nothing about it. Laughter of children is also different grammatically since laughter is an uncountable noun, unlike evening. I'm not saying this is always the decisive factor but in this case it seems to make the difference in the use of the article, at least to me. When laughter of children was heard, it means that some laughter was heard, not necessarily all of it, and consequently dropping the article is normal.

This is how I understand the difference and I don't mind at all if some people disagree with me.

CB

Re: Uncountable noun - genitive case

Clive — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:16:34 GMT

Hi,

You are not asking an easy question. The 'apostrophe ess' form is called the Saxon genitive, which is derived from 'Old English', so it's a very old feature of the English language.

It indicates possession or close association. Perhaps it's easier to see/feel close association when you are talking about something you can count?

Best wishes, Clive

Re: Uncountable noun - genitive case

Anonymous — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:12:57 GMT

Thank you, Clive.

Can you give me the reason why it is not attractive to form the genitive out of an uncountable noun? What is it about an uncountable noun that makes it less attractive or make it less popular in terms of its usage in the genitive form?

Re: Uncountable noun - genitive case

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:33:50 GMT

Thanks Clive.

That's an excellent example of what I was thinking about. So, I was wrong.

Re: Uncountable noun - genitive case

Clive — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:30:23 GMT

Hi,

You mean something like 'He stood at the water's edge'? This is fine.

Clive

Uncountable noun - genitive case

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:46:58 GMT

Is it correct that you cannot have a genetive ('s or ') case of an uncountable noun?

I think this is true but I have not seen it written anywhere.

TIA.

CSV.

Re: genitive as a noun -- long question

Cool Breeze — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:19:55 GMT

Believer wrote:
Can a gerund function as a countable noun? If so, can you show me how it is done in simple terms?

Hi Believer

Of course a gerund can form a plural: his comings and goings.
As you see, the plural is formed by adding an s to the word. Some grammarians distinguish between a gerund and a verbal noun; 'verbal' here meaning 'formed from a verb'.

Examples:
Gerund: Speaking English correctly is easy.
Verbal noun: The correct speaking of English is easy.

Note that a verbal noun is a complete substantive and therefore can take an article and an adjectival attribute. A gerund is a hybrid between a noun and a verb as it has some properties of each. If it were a complete noun, the following sentence would be correct:

Correct speaking English is easy.
There isn't a single noun in English that can't have an adjectival attribute. Speaking in the above example can't be modified by correct and consequently speaking is not a noun in this sentence.

As gerunds are not complete nouns, there are restrictions on their plural usage. You can't put an s after every gerund, usage is often idiomatic. Pay attention to such forms as you read English texts and you'll learn to use them.

Cheers
CB

Re: genitive as a noun -- long question

Believer — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:38:25 GMT

Thank you, CalifJim, Khoff and Eimai_Anglos.

I think I made a mistake -- yes, it should be a "gerund" and not "genitive."

I did some reseach on my own and I think I have gotten the following Google search results:

"a cutting of" 29,200 hits

"a shaking of" 29,700 hits

"a mixing of" 275,500 hits

All seemed to fit somewhat very well with the notion of an instance of cutting, shaking and mixing (as taught us to) by CalifJim, I think).

As to the original phrase, I think the following results were the product of a Google search:

"a barking of" 1,540 hits -- some entries dealt with a myth or a folklore.

"barkings of" 15,000 hits -- the entries here seemed to be from somewhat solid sources where the quality of writing leaves little doubt as to their acceptability, in my opinion, and these many entries from seemingly "quality" sources cast some doubt as to the credibility of what I believe to be Eimai_Anglos' assertion that the word "barkings" is not a correct English word (I think that is what he said).

Here, I am trying my best to get a grasp of what seems to be an important thing to know. Can you help? Can a gerund function as a countable noun? If so, can you show me how it is done in simple terms?

Thank you, all.

Re: genitive as a noun

Believer — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:24:40 GMT

Thank you, Eimai_Anglos.

Are you saying a genitive cannot be made a countable noun or used as a countable noun? I think a guru has delivered expert advice on that aspect of grammar and I think it has been said a construction like "a shaking of a ground" means "an instance of shaking of a ground." Please note that it is a shaking in what seems to be a countable noun form.

Can you give me your expertise in this matter?

1. Why can some genitives have the indefinite article "a" like the genitive noun word "shaking"?

2. At the same time, why don't I never seem to have encountered a plural form of the word "shaking" as "shakings"?

3. Here, "with shouting, yelling and swearing, the motorists ...," would you say the phrase "with shouting, yelling and swearing" is correctly written? If it is correctly written, then what kind of noun are they? My dictionary seems to note that "shouting" is a countable noun but for the two others, I am not sure.

Thank you.

genitive as a noun -- long question

Believer — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:29:26 GMT

Hi,

I think it has been noted in this forum that a genitive (I think it means a noun that has or is from a verbal root) can be (made it to be) a countable noun, possibly like this "a barking of a dog need not be heeded." Here, a barking can be said to be an instance of barking.

1. Why has the person who supposely has written the sentence "a barking of a dog need not be heeded" didn't write it as "A dog bark need not be heeded" or "A dog's barking need not be heeded" eventhough the last one is similar to the first and original one?

2. Why don't I see instances where the plural word "barkings" is used when "barking" can be used as a countable noun? Should I judge its relative acceptance and relative level of usage based on how many times and how frequently I encounter the word in my daily communicative situations (that is in written form as well as in verbal form?)

3, It is my presumption that not all genitives can be readily accepted as a noun, nor its plural form welcomed wholeheartly by some quarters of grammar (linguistic??) academians, but like a fad it can be accepted and be in fashion, so to speak, in due time or as the circumstances allow (like when many people start to use routinely); thus, it should be used circumspectively, being aware of the fact that the act of using a genitive isn't done often. Do you agree or is the logical base of my assumption shaky?

4. In the case of the "reading" in a phrase "a reading", should we resort to looking at the content of the (whole?) writing to determine whether it is being used as "an instance of reading" (that is the act or activity of reading) or a reading, which normally means "an event of reading in front of an audience"?

Note: I am trying to invite more confusion into the matter but to satisfy my curiosity on the matter.

I think this kind of thing can be said to apply similarly to the content in quotation marks. Can it also apply to a parenthetical content? If it can be applied to a parenthetical content, as well as a forementioned content in quotation marks and a genitive, then can you tell me how it can be done for the parenthetical content (I think when you say "a perenthetical content", you are making a reference to some content in parentheses like what I am using to write this parenthetical content)?